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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Hi Jeff

    Stepping away that Kate was on her way to meet someone, i agree with you.

    I'm tending to believe that she headed towards St. B's knowing that she more chance of picking someone up at that time.

    On Jacks front, if he did kill Liz Stride, he also knew that St. B's was the place to go that time of night to get what he wanted.

    I think Jack was extremely streetwise and he was aware of the boundary and possibly played this to his advantage, he also knew how to get around by use of the yards, shadows and alleys too.

    Jim

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by bolo View Post
    Hi Jeff,



    every man accosting a woman or getting accosted by one ran the risk of getting questioned by a member of the police or plain-clothes officer, this specially goes for places like St. Botolph's and surroundings where prostitutes were known to ply their trade. The City commissioner had just increased the number of officers and ordered them to closely watch prostitutes walking the streets in the Eastern part of the City.

    I also think that Jack's appearance was unsuspicious or even respectable on the whole but there still is the psychological factor - Jack had just killed again, he barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard and now basically was on the run. In my opinion, that is the reason why he headed westwards to get a bit of distance between him and the crowd that was forming in Berner Street.

    Mitre Square is close to St. Botolph's but it seems less risky to me (apart from the police beats which Jack may have been aware of), simply because it had more than one exit, was dark and not a lot of people lived there.

    As for the Church Passage couple sighting, the relative intimacy of their behaviour with the two quietly chatting away and the woman putting her hand on the man's chest may have been part of a typical accosting and negotiation process between a punter and a prostitute, but again, we are talking about a man who had just killed a woman and probably was hell-bent on fully acting out his delusions and another one, I always had difficulties to believe that a killer in a situation like that would ignore the presence of three wittnesses (Lawende, Levi and Harris) shortly before he went to work again.

    Gre,

    Boris
    Sure, but events are situational. If JtR did kill Stride, and then headed west to Mitre Square, most routes would have him pass St. Botolph's. If Eddowes had gone there looking to earn her doss, their encounter there might have been very brief, heading off almost immediately to Church Passage (let's say). If it looked too risky at the time, he would have brushed her off presumably. In any case, the murder itself didn't happen at St. Botolph's but in the relatively more isolated Mitre Square. I'm just pondering the idea that the initial meeting between Eddowes and JtR may have been around St. Botoloph's, which wouldn't necessitate them staying in that vicinity for very long, particularly if JtR did come across as safe (keeping in mind Eddowes' judgement might be impaired somewhat as she was just released for being drunk).

    And yes, the actions of the Church Passage Couple does sound rather intimate and they could very well have been two people other than Eddowes and JtR. Or, it may simply have been, as you put it, standard procedure at the time (or even just the result of them sheltering against the rain, which Lawende et al were waiting to pass before leaving the club). Even if JtR was worked up, he was able to convince Eddowes to join him in Mitre Square, so he was able to "keep it together" for some amount of time, and they had to have met somewhere. I suppose one could argue for her walking through the square and getting attacked, but if so, what was she doing in that corner, which is not directly from one passage to another - it's not on a route through the square, but a quiet corner of the square, which seems more "at a destination" than "during a journey". I'm assuming any attack and drag would have created enough noise to have been heard, but then, one would think her murder would have done that too.

    Anyway, it seems to me that an initial meeting at St. Botolph's has enough about it to be worth considering, but by no means am I suggesting it's a proven fact. They had to have met somewhere, and given Kate's known direction of travel from the police station, St. Botolph's is not an unreasonable location for her to end up at. And if JtR did kill Stride, it's also on the likely routes from Stride to Mitre Square. Their paths do seem to intersect, with Kate probably arriving first, and JtR not long after.

    - Jeff

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  • bolo
    replied
    Hi Jeff,

    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    If St. Botolph's area was under a lot of observation, it's so close to Mitre Square that one would think Mitre Square would be too hot for JtR, but clearly it wasn't given the proximity. I don't disagree that it might have been observed more frequently than other locations, but there doesn't seem to have been a permanent stake out of the location. Also, there's no reason why JtR should be suspicious in his appearance, and given his ability to continue to find victims after Annie, some reason to think he did not come across as suspicious.
    every man accosting a woman or getting accosted by one ran the risk of getting questioned by a member of the police or plain-clothes officer, this specially goes for places like St. Botolph's and surroundings where prostitutes were known to ply their trade. The City commissioner had just increased the number of officers and ordered them to closely watch prostitutes walking the streets in the Eastern part of the City.

    I also think that Jack's appearance was unsuspicious or even respectable on the whole but there still is the psychological factor - Jack had just killed again, he barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard and now basically was on the run. In my opinion, that is the reason why he headed westwards to get a bit of distance between him and the crowd that was forming in Berner Street.

    Mitre Square is close to St. Botolph's but it seems less risky to me (apart from the police beats which Jack may have been aware of), simply because it had more than one exit, was dark and not a lot of people lived there.

    As for the Church Passage couple sighting, the relative intimacy of their behaviour with the two quietly chatting away and the woman putting her hand on the man's chest may have been part of a typical accosting and negotiation process between a punter and a prostitute, but again, we are talking about a man who had just killed a woman and probably was hell-bent on fully acting out his delusions and another one, I always had difficulties to believe that a killer in a situation like that would ignore the presence of three wittnesses (Lawende, Levi and Harris) shortly before he went to work again.

    Gre,

    Boris

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Hi Jeff
    I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.

    But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Yes, after the Lawende et al sighting the CPC's activities are unaccounted for. They could have moved off immediately, or later. We know PC Harvey makes no mention of them when he later patrols Church Passage, so I think it's reasonable to presume they've moved off by that point in time, but we have no definitive proof of where they went, or even if they went anywhere together. At most we have Lawende's weak identification, but that's hardly definitive. If we run with that, then the women goes into Mitre Square. If we also decide the man was JtR, then we conclude he went into Mitre Square as well (again, none of this is solid ground, but it is one possibility of course). When they went into Mitre Square also cannot be known for sure, other than it was sometime after 1:33. And given PC Watkins finds the body at 1:44, we know JtR has left by that point, leaving roughly 11 minutes unaccounted for. We can probably narrow that based upon PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage at around 1:41, although the actions of Peter Sutcliff (who crouched and hid with victims to wait out the approach of police and passers by) makes me a wee bit cautious about stating that too strongly. Still, I can't see him sticking around much longer, and even if he did "wait it out", he wasn't engaged in any mutilations during that time, indicating he was probably finished the mutilations that had occurred by that time. What inferences one draws from what we know are, of course, left to each of us.

    - Jeff

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Except PC Watkins was patrolling Mitre Square at about 1:30, and Lawende et al sighted the Church Passage couple between 1:33 and 1:35 (based on Leve and Lawende's statements, respectively). Lawende et al were waiting for the rain to stop before leaving the club, so given they estimated a leaving time of between 1:33 and 1:35, it appears that's roughly when the rain let up enough for them to move on. So, while it is possible JtR and Eddowes entered Mitre Square from either Mitre Street or St. James place, it seems improbable to me for them to enter the square before the rain let up no matter which entrance they chose. And, if they came in from St. James, even less probable given it was covered and so better sheltered.

    Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.

    And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff
    I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.

    But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by bolo View Post
    Hello Juniper, all,



    I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

    As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

    Gre,

    Boris
    If St. Botolph's area was under a lot of observation, it's so close to Mitre Square that one would think Mitre Square would be too hot for JtR, but clearly it wasn't given the proximity. I don't disagree that it might have been observed more frequently than other locations, but there doesn't seem to have been a permanent stake out of the location. Also, there's no reason why JtR should be suspicious in his appearance, and given his ability to continue to find victims after Annie, some reason to think he did not come across as suspicious.

    Anyway, St. Botolph's is on Houndsditch, which I think is mentioned by the PC when they say she turned left from the police station (something like "turned left and headed towards Houndsditch"), but I could be mistaken about that and don't have my notes on hand. If my memory serves, though, it may be the PC presumed she was heading to Houndsditch because, well, that's where the unfortunates go after all. Of course, it could also just be because it was the major street and was just being used as a well known landmark.

    - Jeff

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    The Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.
    Except PC Watkins was patrolling Mitre Square at about 1:30, and Lawende et al sighted the Church Passage couple between 1:33 and 1:35 (based on Leve and Lawende's statements, respectively). Lawende et al were waiting for the rain to stop before leaving the club, so given they estimated a leaving time of between 1:33 and 1:35, it appears that's roughly when the rain let up enough for them to move on. So, while it is possible JtR and Eddowes entered Mitre Square from either Mitre Street or St. James place, it seems improbable to me for them to enter the square before the rain let up no matter which entrance they chose. And, if they came in from St. James, even less probable given it was covered and so better sheltered.

    Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.

    And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).

    - Jeff

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  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

    Jim
    Jack the Ripper would have been comfortable with Major Henry Smith in charge,as he was one of those protecting him.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

    He would have been unaware of any artificial boundary.
    What makes you say that, Scott?

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  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    The Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?
    He would have been unaware of any artificial boundary.

    Leave a comment:


  • bolo
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
    Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?
    On the whole, I think that Jack was an opportunistic killer who let his victims take him to a secluded spot. It is difficult to tell why he ended up on Mitre Square on that fateful early morning but it may have had something to do with the upheaval caused by Liz Stride's death who may or may not have been killed by his hand, he may have bolted westwards and acted out his anger on Kate instead who happened to be on the wrong spot at the wrong time.

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  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by bolo View Post
    Hello Juniper, all,



    I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

    As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

    Gre,

    Boris
    Schlom Boris

    Fair one, I didn't think of that

    Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

    Jim
    Last edited by Juniper4576; 02-09-2021, 07:41 PM.

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  • bolo
    replied
    Hello Juniper, all,

    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Hi Jeff

    As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:

    Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history.
    I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

    As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

    Gre,

    Boris

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Jim P.

    Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.

    Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff

    As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:

    Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history.

    Leave a comment:

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