Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Juniper4576]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

Hmm, Sir Will and Henry, being blackmailed because of this or am just barking again Dave

[Michael W Richards]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

Not suprised at that last line. Ill defer to your research on the topic, I know that in any literature that Ive read from the period that word isnt used to describe homosexuals. Its the dance around saying that...prefers males or females, different persuasions...

The religious influences that helped form the nation seem uneasy with a defined word.

Im very lucky Im white, christian and heterosexual, because Ive avoided being the victim of such predjudices.

[DJA]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

[Michael W Richards]

Homosexual communities tended to use terms like gay at that time .
Same thing here in Melbourne. Gay coffee shops denoted homosexual establishments and there were several.
One was rebuilt as a hotel that was popular with Prime Ministers,yet retained a sophisticated gay bar until the whole shebang was demolished in 1989 and rebuilt again as a Novotel hotel.

I believe the word Gay was probably not used much in that fashion, dja, and not broadly accepted with its current definition. The word was used with the definition it was intended to have, "carefree/cheerful" eg.,... it did not have immediate or broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual until the 20th century.

[DJA]

And what did GAY mean at that time?

Homosexual communities tended to use terms like gay at that time .
Same thing here in Melbourne. Gay coffee shops denoted homosexual establishments and there were several.
One was rebuilt as a hotel that was popular with Prime Ministers,yet retained a sophisticated gay bar until the whole shebang was demolished in 1989 and rebuilt again as a Novotel hotel.

[Michael W Richards]

And what did GAY mean at that time?

Needless to say men that attended all male bath houses would be considered as such, but not referred to as such. The use of the word gay for homosexual and the acceptance of it is certainly new.

Its remarkable how backward we still were at the beginning of the 20th century.

[MrBarnett]

Homosexuals were an easier target after the Labouchere Amendment to the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885.

It was a long road to that Act.

Remember Mary Kelly worked at a GAY house.

And what did GAY mean at that time?

[MrBarnett]

1895, Scott.

That was the year John McCarthy’s younger brother, Daniel died at no. 36. I suspect the sheets over the window of 36 may have some connection to his passing.

His widow, Annie - William Crosdingham’s daughter by his first wife - would subsequently acquire a minder named Billy Maher who, among numerous other escapades, attacked Annie’s stepmother, Margaret (née Sullivan), stabbing her in the face and the side.

On another occasion, when a customer disrespected Annie and drew a knife on Billy, Billy shot the man in the cheek.

Then there was the time he ‘accidentally’ stabbed Black Jack Stevens, a promising young boxer, to death at a Kentish hop farm.

A very interesting chap!

Sorry, I see Dave has already answered the date question, but Billy M is always worth a mention. And if the sheet over the windows is in connection with the mourning of Danny Mac’s death, then the photo was taken in August, 1895.

[MrBarnett]

Dave, any idea when this photograph was taken? Also isn't that a barrow, not a carriage?

1895, Scott.

That was the year John McCarthy’s younger brother, Daniel died at no. 36. I suspect the sheets over the window of 36 may have some connection to his passing.

His widow, Annie - William Crossingham’s daughter by his first wife - would subsequently acquire a minder named Billy Maher who, among numerous other escapades, attacked Annie’s stepmother, Margaret (née Sullivan), stabbing her in the face and the side.

On another occasion, when a customer disrespected Annie and drew a knife on Billy, Billy shot the man in the cheek.

Then there was the time he ‘accidentally’ stabbed Black Jack Stevens, a promising young boxer, to death at a Kentish hop farm.

A very interesting chap!

[DJA]

Homosexuals were an easier target after the Labouchere Amendment to the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885.

It was a long road to that Act.

Remember Mary Kelly worked at a GAY house.

[Michael W Richards]

No.There is no snippet of it from partners or friends .They were broke a lot and there was no money coming in.That Jack knew one or a couple of them is more believable.

Im not aboard a 5 woman conspiracy plot myself at this point in time, but I do agree with the idea that blackmail was likely involved in at least Kates murder roots.

Perhaps the real truth involves several of the possible avenues presently identified. Combined. Some Fenian connected man that Kate knew of when her social circle was Irish...(lets not forget her prominent tattoo, Conway obviously influenced her greatly), that had a penchant for violence and cold hearted behaviour..maybe a local bomber,... (and Mitre Square did at one time house dynamite for such people and movements)...he gets wind of Kate spouting off about turning in someone who she thinks is killing these women recently..something he may or may not be guilty of, but any police exposure would be dangerous for him, ...and the Senior men from counter espionage, intelligence gathering, management of spies and agents, (people powerful enough to know of intelligence suggesting catastrophic actions, and actually decide whether to act or not, notify or not.. even when the Queen herself is possibly in grave danger), are in a conundrum having ties themselves to some of the Irish movements most dangerous men.

Stories dont match, because there was no "conspiracy" plot..they just had to protect themselves, and perhaps in some cases, the nefarious men in their view.

Thats a loose fictional idea, based on facts. There needs to be a story, to believe otherwise is naive.

[Juniper4576]

No.There is no snippet of it from partners or friends .They were broke a lot and there was no money coming in.That Jack knew one or a couple of them is more believable.

They may not of known each other personally, but I do believe they had the same thing in common, which was all of their connection to Jack.

As DJA mentions, possibly blackmail for something.

If it is money that they are trying to gain, who would advertise that they are likely to come in to alot of money, MJK was heavily in debt as an example, the others probably owe someone something; possibly get the money and run.

[Varqm]

Ever consider they were blackmailing Jack the Ripper ?

No.There is no snippet of it from partners or friends .They were broke a lot and there was no money coming in.That Jack knew one or a couple of them is more believable.

[DJA]

If the victims knew each other how come when the big news of their deaths came nobody (the future victims) told their fellow lodgers,partners or friends about their "dead friend/acquaintance" or gossip about it.They did not know each other,it strongly seems like.

Ever consider they were blackmailing Jack the Ripper ?

[DJA]

Dave, any idea when this photograph was taken? Also isn't that a barrow, not a carriage?

1895.