Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Scott Nelson]

Have you discovered something that upsets the accepted genealogy of Marie Lloyd’s husband, John Joseph ‘Steve’ McCarthy?

Gary

If somebody would kindly demonstrate that the Miller's Court John McCarthy was part of the Marie Lloyd genealogy, great. I'm not doubting there was a John McCarthy, Esq. and a McCarthy Jr. Esq. who were involved in lodging houses, promoting fights, theatrical productions, comedy, charity causes, etc., just that Miller's Court McCarthy and McCarthy Esq. were the same persons.

[Fiver]

Homosexuals were an easier target after the Labouchere Amendment to the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885.

It was a long road to that Act.

Remember Mary Kelly worked at a GAY house.

In Victorian slang, a "gay house" was a brothel with female prostitutes and male clients. "Gay" did not become a slang term for homosexuality until after World War II.

[Fiver]

Ever consider they were blackmailing Jack the Ripper ?

Attempting to blackmail a serial killer would be an act of extreme stupidity. Meeting the killer alone and unarmed requires even greater stupidity. Nothing indicates that Eddowes was that stunningly stupid.

[MrBarnett]

Show me and I'll shut up about it (and not the Fiona Rule book please).

Scott,

Have you discovered something that upsets the accepted genealogy of Marie Lloyd’s husband, John Joseph ‘Steve’ McCarthy?

That would be worthy of a thread of its own.

Perhaps you should start one.

Gary

[Juniper4576]

I think Juniper that if one day a plausible, well supported by evidence Canon of victims could be constructed we would have a better chance of seeing his real characteristics. Its why I choose to accept a group that for me is supportable within the known evidence. And for me, its 2-3 victims. Polly, Annie and perhaps Kate. But Kate only if other factors played into it..rather than the Opportunity stranger killer in the first 2 murders. Because I believe the circumstances in Kates case do not suggest she was picked up while she solicited. Which is the case in the first 2...by their own admission. They were actively soliciting. Liz doesnt appear to have been, nor Kate, and Mary was home in bed.

I agree with you on this Mike, I am still on the fence if Jack was responsible for all 5 or 2 or 3 of the known C5; this is probably because that I have no hard evidence to prove otherwise.

I like the sound of DJAs theory and he, like it appears all of you on here have done some mega serious research and respect to you all for that.

Do you have a suspect and a motive? I have ideas on snippets of the case and I said before I have no evidence to back it up, but guessing at best, how Jack got away with it and why did he stop.

Jim

[Scott Nelson]

You are wrong.
John/Steve was born in 1874.

Show me and I'll shut up about it (and not the Fiona Rule book please).

[Michael W Richards]

My viewpoint for over 16 years is that everything points to Henry Gawen Sutton being Jack the Ripper.

Chapman and Eddowes gave hints of coming into money.

Having a viewpoint and proving its valid are of course entirely different animals, as you are aware of. Chapman already had a benefactor.

[DJA]

My viewpoint for over 16 years is that everything points to Henry Gawen Sutton being Jack the Ripper.

Chapman and Eddowes gave hints of coming into money.

[Michael W Richards]

The Five were blackmailing their medical officer who was a homosexual and a teaching pathologist.

Eddowes was a source of several specimens and had been a patient for almost 21 years.

A problem I have with this DJA is the deviant nature of some of the crimes. I believe a medical man might well be involved, or at least someone trained to be one, but there is a serious mental issue also. To do this in such a public spectacle way....so ghastly and ghoulish we are still shocked by it today.

If this is a respectable member of society...as a medical man would be....and used a knife on bodies as part of his profession, then why the butcher? Why brutish? Annies killer had some sophistication, some skills and some specific goals. Do any of the other murders seem that disciplined? No meaningless cuts.

Why would there be evidence in Kates case that blackmail might be her goal, based on Saturday evening and at her meet point early Sunday morning....and no hint of that in the other 4 cases? In Kates case we hear she had information she intended to sell...leaving blackmailing the person she was to finger as a possibility. Where is the evidence that Polly, Annie and Liz felt they had something of value to sell? Or Mary. Polly and Annie seemed particularly disadvantaged and hopeless...Annie confiding she had to stay out to earn despite feeling ill, Polly staying out, earning, and then drinking the proceeds. Do these seem like women who have a plan to get some real money? Women with hope? Didnt Mary confide that she wished she hadnt followed the path she did...does that seem like the reflections of someone who had a scheme ongoing to make some money? Wouldnt they be excited/energized at maybe cashing in?

[Michael W Richards]

I honestly think there is more to it than a simple serial killer. I agree with Michael, he wasn't someone who was 'simple'.

With regards to why he ripped, to be honest I dont know, i try and look at how Jack got away with it.

I think Juniper that if one day a plausible, well supported by evidence Canon of victims could be constructed we would have a better chance of seeing his real characteristics. Its why I choose to accept a group that for me is supportable within the known evidence. And for me, its 2-3 victims. Polly, Annie and perhaps Kate. But Kate only if other factors played into it..rather than the Opportunity stranger killer in the first 2 murders. Because I believe the circumstances in Kates case do not suggest she was picked up while she solicited. Which is the case in the first 2...by their own admission. They were actively soliciting. Liz doesnt appear to have been, nor Kate, and Mary was home in bed.

[DJA]

The Five were blackmailing their medical officer who was a homosexual and a teaching pathologist.

Eddowes was a source of several specimens and had been a patient for almost 21 years.

[Juniper4576]

MJK could not pay her arrears for ex..The victims just happen to be the ones on the streets when the JTR was looking for a victim.Same as whoever killed Alice McKenzie,Tabram.If these victims were blackmailing why open their abdomens get their organs.Overkill.

I honestly think there is more to it than a simple serial killer. I agree with Michael, he wasn't someone who was 'simple'.

With regards to why he ripped, to be honest I dont know, i try and look at how Jack got away with it.

[Michael W Richards]

MJK could not pay her arrears for ex..The victims just happen to be the ones on the streets when the JTR was looking for a victim.Same as whoever killed Alice McKenzie,Tabram.If these victims were blackmailing why open their abdomens get their organs.Overkill.

I believe thats a feature one can actually use to evaluate the possibilities....the intention to acquire internal organs for the finale. Thats unusual. Its also possible this could be broken into subgroups too...man seeking female abdominal organs. He might have targeted only females because he thought the attack would be easier for him, and working street women take strangers to dark places routinely, so a good target. Which suggest a killer who counts on an Opportunity. He doesnt lead them, they lead. He doesnt really choose the spot..unless he pounces on an impulse, so it seems hes taking a chance here. What if the woman is strong and can fight? What is she leads him into a spot with only 1 exit?...(See Hanbury and Millers Court). Lots of variables.

It might explain why someone would choose to get Kate into Mitre Square..presumbly even if he knew the police patrolled that area, he may not have know they used 2 of three access points to do so, but he is likely aware they did come by. There is a suggestion of bravado taking this action without assessing all the potential ways this could go wrong and taking measure to offset them. He takes risks. Confidence. No meek street dweller with low self esteem there.

[JeffHamm]

"and having before me the Report that if it was left there the house was likely to be wrecked (in which from my own
observation I entirely concurred)"

The Report is the one Warren read to supplement his decision to erase the graffito,that the "house will be wrecked".So the fear of destruction and violence was real and high.

Ah, sorry, my mistake. I was thinking where you had the end bit (Warrens report to the Home office) was the report you were referring to, which is what you were quoting - but there's the report within the report, and it all becomes a bit inception based.

- Jeff

[Varqm]

Hi Varqm,

Ummm, you're quoting from the report, so how could you do that if the report doesn't exist? (well, didn't exist, since no doubt you're quoting from either another post or a book, and not viewing the original files directly. Anyway, yes, Warren's report did exist, and may still be in the files.

- Jeff

"and having before me the Report that if it was left there the house was likely to be wrecked (in which from my own
observation I entirely concurred)"

The Report is the one Warren read to supplement his decision to erase the graffito,that the "house will be wrecked".So the fear of destruction and violence was real and high.