Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[FISHY1118]

City-constable Lewis Robinson, 931, deposed: At half-past eight, on the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, while on duty in High-street, Aldgate, I saw a crowd of persons outside No. 29, surrounding a woman whom I have since recognized as the deceased. ..... this statement is from the official inquest , i think that makes more sense than a newspaper ariticle . and another Constable George Henry Hutt, 968, City Police: I am gaoler at Bishopsgate station. On the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, at a quarter to ten o'clock, I took over our prisoners, among them the deceased. I visited her several times until five minutes to one on Sunday morning..Can there be any doubt now.

[FISHY1118]

Thank you Trevor , nice to hear from you . So 1.38am leaving six minutes for the killer to do his work, would that be a fair point.? 1.36am at the very earliest ?

[JeffHamm]

Hi fishy,

That would be correct Jeff thank you . Which begs another question , why does just about every theory as to what happen at Mitre square that night start with Eddows and a man [supposedly her killer] at duke st church passage at 1.35? truth is no one can say with any certainty how she entered or from which direction she entered Mitre Square . Except of course her killer. What we do know for sure is Eddows was not in the spot she was found before 1.33 am [ assuming p.c Watkins took 3 mins to walk around the square and then left to start his route again, returning 11mins later and finding her body.

Basically, that's because they are the only couple sighted at any of the entrances, and both Lawende and Levy testified they recognized her by her clothes. Not great evidence, and easily could be mistaken, but the fireman in St. James Place (I think it was) testified they didn't see anyone go into Mitre Square from there. So the only other entrance would be from Mitre Street, for which we have no sighting. It's possible, but given there's a tentative ID at one of the entrances at an appropriate time, that's what most work with. Also, there's some range in that time of sighting, Levy reports it at 1:33 and Lawende at 135. Again, those 2 minutes add a significant amount of time.

Check out the first post that started this thread. I worked out where PC Watkins would roughly be (assuming a constant speed around his beat), and you can see it would take about a minute and a half for him to fully patrol Mitre Square not three. Given how little time there was, that extra 1 1/2 minutes is important to consider. Also, probably only would take a minute, at a slow walk, to get from where they were seen to the crime scene.

Now lets say for argument sake that Eddows and her killer were seen at church st passage at 1.35am as one witness testified, that makes it approx 1.37am to reach the spot she was found. That leaves 7 mins untill Watkins discovers Eddows body at 1.44am. agree/disagree?

And the doctors (forget which one right now) estimated 5 minutes was required. It happened in a very narrow time window. JtR could have been scared off either by Morris opening the door during clean up or by PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage. Both occurred a few minutes before PC Watkins returns, which is enough time for JtR to flee the scene.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Thank you Trevor , nice to hear from you . So 1.38am leaving six minutes for the killer to do his work, would that be a fair point.? 1.36am at the very earliest ?

The time the killer is supposed to have had with the victim has always been a contentious issue with some for obvious reasons. The less time the killer with the victim impacts on all that he is supposed to have done with and to the victim.

When looking at these timings you have to factor in Pc Harveys times and movements, he may well have disturbed the killer.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

PCs Robinson and Simmons [City police] could not definitively identify Eddowes at Golden Lane mortuary as the woman they had arrested in Aldgate for drunkenness and taken to Bishopsgate police station.

DAILY NEWS, 3rd October 1888—

Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre Square.

The policemen, having seen the mutilated body at the mortuary in Golden-lane, expressed the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink. Owing to the disfigurement of the face they could not, however, speak with absolute certainty.

I find the disfigurement element curious in these last 2 Canonical cases Simon. Why did so much superfluous cutting suddenly appear at this time? In the case I feel is best representative of what people think of as a "Ripper" murder, Annie Chapmans, the opinion was that most of the cuts made were to reach the objectives. The killer there intended to do what was eventually done, little else mattered. It would be impossible to identify Marys face without setting the forehead flaps that hung over her eyes back in place, and as you illustrate above, people trained in recognition skills were less than 100% on their identifications due to the facial mutilations.

Coincidental? Maybe. But it is interesting to me that in these same 2 cases there is another coincidence that has the first victim using almost the complete name and address of the following Canonical victim in aliases chosen during her last 24 hours.

So why did this targeted and focused killer suddenly stop using his evident knife skills and begin a slash and gut campaign? My answer would be that he probably didn't.

[Harry D]

Coincidental? Maybe. But it is interesting to me that in these same 2 cases there is another coincidence that has the first victim using almost the complete name and address of the following Canonical victim in aliases chosen during her last 24 hours.

It's an interesting coincidence but not one that we should read too much into, imo.

'Kelly' was the surname of Catherine's common-law husband, John. There are numerous press reports referring to her as 'Catherine Kelly'. I also understand that "Mary Anne Kelly" was the name of John Kelly's late wife. That seems a more natural explanation for the name she gave to the police than what you are suggesting.

[Trevor Marriott]

I find the disfigurement element curious in these last 2 Canonical cases Simon. Why did so much superfluous cutting suddenly appear at this time? In the case I feel is best representative of what people think of as a "Ripper" murder, Annie Chapmans, the opinion was that most of the cuts made were to reach the objectives. The killer there intended to do what was eventually done, little else mattered. It would be impossible to identify Marys face without setting the forehead flaps that hung over her eyes back in place, and as you illustrate above, people trained in recognition skills were less than 100% on their identifications due to the facial mutilations.

Coincidental? Maybe. But it is interesting to me that in these same 2 cases there is another coincidence that has the first victim using almost the complete name and address of the following Canonical victim in aliases chosen during her last 24 hours.

So why did this targeted and focused killer suddenly stop using his evident knife skills and begin a slash and gut campaign? My answer would be that he probably didn't.

The cutting to Eddowes face could have been as a result of her trying to avoid the knife .The angle of the wounds seem to all go the same way at the same angle. Perhaps consistent with the killer being behind her with the knife in front of her face as he attempted to cut her throat.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

''I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman''. That was Lawende statement....Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage, but I did not take any notice of them....Indeed minutes are very important so lets call it 1.34 shall we. As for p.c watkins he was very sure about his route being 12 to 14 minutes 2mins around the square take him right to 1.44 . just saying , so i think we agree we are close in the times as we can be . fish

[FISHY1118]

The cutting to Eddowes face could have been as a result of her trying to avoid the knife ... Trevor this implys that eddows for a second or two put up struggle, if that was the case wound she not have screamed ?

[Trevor Marriott]

''I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman''. That was Lawende statement....Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage, but I did not take any notice of them....Indeed minutes are very important so lets call it 1.34 shall we. As for p.c watkins he was very sure about his route being 12 to 14 minutes 2mins around the square take him right to 1.44 . just saying , so i think we agree we are close in the times as we can be . fish

Yes I think 1.35 has been the generally accepted time of the sighting but as you say we cannot be that accurate and I agree that minutes are crucial to the whole Eddowes murder.

If you haven't already read it there is a whole new revised chapter on Eddowes and her murder with all the time permutations in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real truth" available in paperback and e book from Amazon and all other online retailers https://amzn.to/2JEemVa

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

That was Dr Frederick Brown who gave that estimate of 5 mins, taking into account Dr Phillips said he could inflict all the injuries on Chapman in less than 15 mins . Thats a big difference especially as Chapmans injuries were some what less than Eddows .

[FISHY1118]

Thank you Trevor . yes ive read your book recently and look forward in discussing some interesting points of view you mention it in .

[JeffHamm]

''I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman''. That was Lawende statement....Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage, but I did not take any notice of them....Indeed minutes are very important so lets call it 1.34 shall we. As for p.c watkins he was very sure about his route being 12 to 14 minutes 2mins around the square take him right to 1.44 . just saying , so i think we agree we are close in the times as we can be . fish

Hi Fish,

Yes, we're in the same set of time ranges. Of course, the other thing to consider is that the testimony concerning what time it was when he found Eddowes comes from PC Watkins, and what time the sighting occurred comes from Lawende and company, and what time PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage comes from PC Harvey. And each of them were consulting different clocks (PC Harvey would check the clock at the post office each time he went by on his patrol, and he was almost there again, so he was estimating the time based upon what the time was last time he passed it and how long is beat usually took to complete; and if PC Watkins watch (I think he had one for some reason) was say a minute slow, and the club clock a minute fast, then when Lawende and Levy give us a range from 1:33 to 1:35 from the club clock, for PC Watkins that is 1:31-1:33. These are not known, of course, so it's not like we should build an explanation that depends upon that, but it does mean it's possible there was even a bit more time available to JtR.

Oh, and I think it's in this thread somewhere, but there is a modern medical opinion given where he thinks the mutilations on Eddowes, and the removal of the uterus and kidney, could be completed in about 2-3 minutes, so less than the 5 minutes estimated at the time. Again, it's only a couple minutes, but we know it had to be tight because JtR did it and got away without being spotted on the run.

Anyway, not saying these are all to be treated as facts, they're really just additional things to think about and consider.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

The cutting to Eddowes face could have been as a result of her trying to avoid the knife .The angle of the wounds seem to all go the same way at the same angle. Perhaps consistent with the killer being behind her with the knife in front of her face as he attempted to cut her throat.

Some of the facial wounds were caused with the knife wielded point-downwards (like the nicks to both eyelids and the cuts to the mouth and lip), others with the flat of the blade (the lopped-off nose and the two inverted so-called "V"s on both cheeks), and many of them would have required the exertion of a reasonable amount of force on the killer's behalf. There's no way they could have been caused by Eddowes wiggling her head about and accidentally hitting a waving knife.

[Michael W Richards]

It's an interesting coincidence but not one that we should read too much into, imo.

'Kelly' was the surname of Catherine's common-law husband, John. There are numerous press reports referring to her as 'Catherine Kelly'. I also understand that "Mary Anne Kelly" was the name of John Kelly's late wife. That seems a more natural explanation for the name she gave to the police than what you are suggesting.

You may be right Harry, although she used "Mary Kelly" and "Jane Kelly" respectively,..why not use Catharine or Kate Kelly if she is just choosing it based on her having a relationship with John? Why choose Dorset street as a fake address, when it was considered one of the meanest streets in the East End at that time. Plus, I don't see any JK tattooed on her arm. Her relationship with Kelly sounds like a partnership, a shared expenses lifestyle...after all, the guy didn't even go see about her well being even though he knew that she was in jail Saturday night. He waited to see her name in the paper. Would she assume the surname of someone she shared expenses with?