The Apron Again

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Ruby,

Are you asking Trevor to experiment with half an apron piece an a female on her menstrual cycle?

Hmmmm

And post it on 'You Tube', Monty.

[Chava]

Guys I'm going back to what I posted a lot of pages ago.

We have no evidence to show that the killer placed that cloth in the location where it was found.

It could have been picked up by an animal and then dropped. It could have been kicked to one side out of the way of someone walking in the street. You cannot rule out the existence of a disinterested 3rd party moving that cloth from its original location. As well, you have no evidence to show that the writer of the graffito was also the person who put that cloth down close to it.

And because of this it seems to me that we are wasting our time--and I say this as the starter of more than one 'apron' thread. To me, the importance of the apron is why he took it and what he used it for. He was specifically after the apron--there was a lot of other material closer to hand after he'd done his work but he went for that. So that, to me, is the more fruitful direction for inquiry.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Guys I'm going back to what I posted a lot of pages ago.

We have no evidence to show that the killer placed that cloth in the location where it was found.

It could have been picked up by an animal and then dropped. It could have been kicked to one side out of the way of someone walking in the street. You cannot rule out the existence of a disinterested 3rd party moving that cloth from its original location. As well, you have no evidence to show that the writer of the graffito was also the person who put that cloth down close to it.

All that is true , Chava, but equally, highly unlikely.

[Chava]

It's not unlikely Ruby. On the contrary, it's highly likely. I'm old enough to remember what streets used to be like in the good old bad old days. When it was still considered reasonable to just drop your rubbish right in the street. The level of refuse was very high indeed. In the Scotswood Road area of Newcastle, before they pulled down all the back-to-backs and put up all those lovely, badly-built, dangerous high-rises in the 1960s, the streets teemed with all kinds of refuse--old meat bones, horrid bits of cloth which found their way outside from the clothing factories in the area, empty tin cans with jaggy edges. Old bits of metal rusted out down there along with spoiled fruit and cigarette ends. It was a highly horrible place to see, and I only went down there with my mother to see my aunts who owned some of those clothing factories. I'll never forget what that was like, picking delicately through the garbage in my little private school uniform while being told off by my mother not to listen to all the highly-coloured language which the women down there used to call their kids on off the street. And I suspect that Whitechapel in the 1880s was much worse. There would have been a lot of stray dogs down there who would have made a beeline for a nice bloodied-up bit of cloth. And there would have been men walking through who just kicked the nastiness out of their way when they went through.

And we cannot assume that this did not happen to the piece of apron.

[lynn cates]

Q & A

Hello Simon. Excellent question. Tentative answer?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pain, articles, etc

Hello Ruby.

"Lynn -you are pretending to feel like Kate"

Pretending? Oh no. It's like the American President Bill Clinton once said, "I feel your pain."

"Maybe neither of us can 'be' Kate?"

Indeed. But we can understand a distended bladder and "priorities."

"As much as I can empathise with the victims, being a vulnerable woman, it is more productive to focus on the mentality of the killer rather than the bladder contents of his poor victims?"

But how shall we do that? For example, I notice you use the definite article for the assailant. Why is that?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Peeing or fleeing?

Try imagining that sequence in a prostitute's trysting pattern. If Kate did that first, then she could have gone about her soliciting. But she did not.

Understood Lynn, but again, the floodgates may have been open after she just "went" 10 minutes earlier.

Indeed. But you are interjecting 21st c prostitutes into the 19th c.

I agree with you here Lynn, although others have suggested it, I don’t think the Victorians indulged in the sordid vices of our contemporaries.

But I agree with you that this is only one of many items that cause the eyebrows to raise.

I also agree that your peeing thesis, which I’ll henceforward call Lynn’s Peeing Thesis or LPT, causes a raised eyebrow or two.

What intrigues me about LPT is the question of where the liquid came from.

Did Kate drink some water in jail?
Did she drink some water after her release?
Did she acquire a pint or two or a glass of gin or two and if so, how did she pay?

Did she in fact meet Sailor man in a pub where he bought her a couple of drinks in exchange for a later slam dance in the corner of Mitre Square?

Again, the possibilities are endless but such ideas are what most interests me about LPT. I daresay you should have used LPT in your original dissertation.

No need to apologise. After all, it's a very important topic for people my age . . . (heh-heh)

I'm not quite there yet Lynn yet somehow I feel your pain...


Greg

[lynn cates]

Lpt

Hello Greg.

"Understood Lynn, but again, the floodgates may have been open after she just "went" 10 minutes earlier."

Och! I know that feeling.

"I agree with you here Lynn, although others have suggested it, I don’t think the Victorians indulged in the sordid vices of our contemporaries."

Thanks. I think this was largely an overactive male fantasy on the part of some ripper students.

"I also agree that your peeing thesis, which I’ll henceforward call Lynn’s Peeing Thesis or LPT, causes a raised eyebrow or two."

Thanks again. Wonder if it will attain the heights of the GSG? (heh-heh)

"What intrigues me about LPT is the question of where the liquid came from.

Did Kate drink some water in jail?
Did she drink some water after her release?
Did she acquire a pint or two or a glass of gin or two and if so, how did she pay?"

What about the mass quantities consumed earlier that day in the pub? I've always wondered whom was buying.

"Did she in fact meet Sailor man in a pub where he bought her a couple of drinks in exchange for a later slam dance in the corner of Mitre Square?"

Close, I'd say. I think her "friend" knew the laws of the City of London--concerning release of a public intoxication--and wished to have Kate kept "fresh" whilst he awaited an opportunity.

"Again, the possibilities are endless but such ideas are what most interests me about LPT. I daresay you should have used LPT in your original dissertation."

OK. Umm? At least, it is not confused with LVP.

"I'm not quite there yet Lynn yet somehow I feel your pain..."

Then hie thee hither to the WC. We can meet and discuss the apron and GSG.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Chava

It's not unlikely Ruby. On the contrary, it's highly likely.

I'm afraid it's extremely unlikely, if not ridiculous. A dog would have disturbed the CS. It would rather have taken away the piece of intestine....as for the piece of apron, it would have chewed it....etc etc.

Beurk !

Amitiés !

[Rubyretro]

....as piece of apron, it would have chewed it....etc etc.

Thank goodness that it wasn't chewed ! We'd have people speculating that it
had been chewed by JTR, and trying to read things into the particular dentition in the photos of Monty or Le Grand...

[DVV]

Aaaargh.....

The only thing I chew is fresh and green awoday khat, when I'm in Ethiopia. It's far better, trust me.

Cheers !

[lynn cates]

reproduction

Hello David.

"I'm afraid it's extremely unlikely, if not ridiculous. A dog would have disturbed the CS."

Although I make no claims about dogs with regard to the apron piece, I think it possible that a dog could take the piece and yet not come close to Kate's body. This would depend upon the its being sufficiently far from the body. I suppose that would entail some few yards.

And the best way to ascertain tdistance, I think, would be to reproduce certain parts of the slaying (without a real victim, of course).

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hummm...aaarfff....mouais....je crois pas...

Hi Lynn

possible....yes. But highly unlikely (understatement). I'm an incorrible conservative who is still of opinion that JtR killed twice that night, chalked the graffito and laid the piece of apron where it has been found.

Slainte ! (suis dans ma période scotch)

[lynn cates]

time & place

Hello David. As I say, I make no claims about dogs taking apron pieces. My point is that a dog could get the piece and yet not disturb the body. Again, this would happen only if the apron were a few feet/yards away and were noticed by the dog--or other animal--before discovering the body.

On the other hand, if we assume the killer deposited it at Goulston st, then we may wish to account for the intervening time and distance.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

time

Hi All,

At what time did Dr. Brown fit the missing piece of apron "which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body"?

Eddowes was stripped upon her arrival at Golden Lane mortuary [3.15 - 3.30 am?], yet almost two hours later when Dr. Brown left the mortuary at 5.20 pm, Dr. Phillips, who had taken possession of the missing piece of apron at Leman Street police station, had yet to arrive [Lloyds Weekly News, 30th September].

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

just another point that indicates what we have been told does not add up, how long will it be before ALL the things that are put down to co-incidence, mis-reporting and defence of the "way we are told" without getting the old cop out thrown at those that do question the official evidence actually gets questioned with open eyes and not get "conspiracist" launched from fencesitters who dare not contemplate that LIES may have been told all through the Eddowes story? Some people wont see it because it would throw many years of "sensible" "guided" presented study down the drain. Shame. I'd rather keep my eyes open to the reality- something. And I dont know what- was driving this along. And a few people in the know knew it too.
I wonder sometimes if some today actually know?Thanks for showing another example of why the "safe" option of believing everxthing we are told rhould be questioned. The Mitre Square story is all wrong. Its that simple.

Kindly

Phil