The Apron Again

[Bridewell]

What Coincidence?

Caz has made some excellent points, and the graffito must have been extremely recent, also the 3 coincidences of the 2 jewish clubs + the writing , on the same night, seem too much to bear....

I don't see any great coincidence in there being Jewish clubs near the murder sites, or in anti-Semitic graffiti being found nearby either. About 40% of the local population was Jewish and clubs will have catered for their interests. Walter Dew tells us that graffiti was commonplace & doubtless some of it was anti-Semitic in nature.
How recent the graffito was is by no means certain, so I don't think "must have been" recent can be justified.

[lynn cates]

post mortem

Hello Ruby. Well, if Kate did, the post mortem revealed otherwise as she had urine in her bladder.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]

I don't see any great coincidence in there being Jewish clubs near the murder sites, or in anti-Semitic graffiti being found nearby either. About 40% of the local population was Jewish and clubs will have catered for their interests. Walter Dew tells us that graffiti was commonplace & doubtless some of it was anti-Semitic in nature.

- I think that " must have been (recent)" has been pretty well
justified here, concerning the graffito.
The level of coincidence is moot.

Personally I am open to coincidences, but too many coincidences beg questions.

[GregBaron]

Should I stay or should I go?

Well, if Kate did, the post mortem revealed otherwise as she had urine in her bladder.

Hi all,

This is all rather untoward but we must sometimes follow the discussion down the dark passages of its direction............

Although not ideal Lynn, I do think people can indulge in sex even when they have to pee. Also, sometimes people don't yet know they have to pee even though the bladder has begun filling.

Sometimes people can asked to be excused for a brief time while they take care of nature's requirements.

Sometimes people can indulge in sexual activity that doesn't involve coitus.....!

There are many possibilities here and although you may be correct, Lynn, in that something else was afoot............I don't think we can categorically say Eddowes wasn't soliciting because she had to pee.......I think that's going a bit too far........

Ok, apologies for the peeing discussion.....



Greg

[Bridewell]

If Kate Went Home

Trevor's theory that Kate tore the apron herself and used it for toiletry purposes cannot be ruled out, but I would have thought it unlikely, particularly if she went all the way back to Flower & Dean Street.
Firstly, it seems unlikely that she would not have used an available toilet at the police station before leaving. Secondly, she was in dire straits financially & I think it most unlikely that she would not have found something to wipe herself on without having to resort to tearing a piece off her own apron. Her apron had some small value to Kate herself, but none at all to her killer.
The apron bore stains of both faecal matter and blood. I have seen nothing to suggest that Kate was menstruating at the time of her death, and it would surely have been noted, and commented upon if she had been. Dr Brown examined the body sufficiently to note the injuries in great detail and that there were "no indications of connexion". In the absence of evidence that the blood was menstrual in origin, the likelihood is that the source was the injuries sustained by the owner.

[Bridewell]

Urine in Her Bladder

Hi all,

This is all rather untoward but we must sometimes follow the discussion down the dark passages of its direction............

Although not ideal Lynn, I do think people can indulge in sex even when they have to pee. Also, sometimes people don't yet know they have to pee even though the bladder has begun filling. Greg

The quantity of urine was "3 to 4 ounces", significantly less that quarter of a pint. That doesn't suggest, to me, someone who was in urgent need of a toilet.

[Rubyretro]

Hello Ruby. Well, if Kate did, the post mortem revealed otherwise as she had urine in her bladder.

Cheers.
LC

If Kate did what ?

Maybe she didn't feel the need to do anything before she had no more time to do nothing (as the graffito is so enigmatically phrased).

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor's theory that Kate tore the apron herself and used it for toiletry purposes cannot be ruled out, but I would have thought it unlikely, particularly if she went all the way back to Flower & Dean Street.
Firstly, it seems unlikely that she would not have used an available toilet at the police station before leaving. Secondly, she was in dire straits financially & I think it most unlikely that she would not have found something to wipe herself on without having to resort to tearing a piece off her own apron. Her apron had some small value to Kate herself, but none at all to her killer.
The apron bore stains of both faecal matter and blood. I have seen nothing to suggest that Kate was menstruating at the time of her death, and it would surely have been noted, and commented upon if she had been. Dr Brown examined the body sufficiently to note the injuries in great detail and that there were "no indications of connexion". In the absence of evidence that the blood was menstrual in origin, the likelihood is that the source was the injuries sustained by the owner.

So isnt being spotted with blood and and traces of feacal matter suggesteive of it being between the legs of an un hygenic woman who may have been at the end of her monthly cycle. It should also be noted that these women who were malnourished etc did not have full blown periods.

I think you are missing the point here if she was alreday using the piece as a sanitary device and she needed to releive herslef in some way either en route from the police station or back towards the city then she could have easily after doing just that discarded it.

The apron was also describe as being wet it wasnt found in the open so the wet could have been urine from perhaps her pissing herslef whilst in custody as its not un common for drunken people to do just that.

Ypu have to accept that rags of this nature were used by women of that time as sanitary devices. Now before those people start jumping up and down saying she was in posession of 12 pieces of white cloth. One has to ask for what purpose did she have these I would suggest for some private eneterprise to sell so you are not going to destroy a possible means of income.

Besides it would appear that the piece was cut/torn along where a repair had been made.

There were it seems only two people who could have deposited it in Goulston Street, Eddowes or the killer clearly all the avenues have been explored regarding the killer so I stand by the fact that she deposited herself for the reasons suggested. As all the other suggestions surrounding the apron piece do not stand up to close scrutiny.

[lynn cates]

urine or you're out

Hello Greg.

"Although not ideal Lynn, I do think people can indulge in sex even when they have to pee."

Well, I have no empirical experience here. Sorry. (heh-heh)

"Sometimes people can ask to be excused for a brief time while they take care of nature's requirements."

Try imagining that sequence in a prostitute's trysting pattern. If Kate did that first, then she could have gone about her soliciting. But she did not.

"Sometimes people can indulge in sexual activity that doesn't involve coitus.....!"

Indeed. But you are interjecting 21st c prostitutes into the 19th c.

"There are many possibilities here and although you may be correct, Lynn, in that something else was afoot............I don't think we can categorically say Eddowes wasn't soliciting because she had to pee.......I think that's going a bit too far........"

Not, not categorically. But I agree with you that this is only one of many items that cause the eyebrows to raise.

"Ok, apologies for the peeing discussion....."

No need to apologise. After all, it's a very important topic for people my age . . . (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

release of urine

Hello Bridewell.

"The quantity of urine was "3 to 4 ounces", significantly less that quarter of a pint. That doesn't suggest, to me, someone who was in urgent need of a toilet."

Indeed. But how much was lost when she was cut? Frequently, a sudden death causes a loss of urine as well as defecation. Now, add that to the 3-4 ounces.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clarification

Hello Ruby. If Kate went to the water closet for comfort.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Bridewell;198775]

The quantity of urine was "3 to 4 ounces", significantly less that quarter of a pint

.

Bridewell..surely you have better things to do with your time than to spend it on this sort of maths (?....??). It depends on the person and the day...and the weather...(the cold ).

[lynn cates]

size IS important

Hello Ruby. To say nothing about initial bladder size and frequency of spasms, etc.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

I have to say that concerting sex and pissing has never been a problem that I've met...and perhaps the same for Kate Eddowes.

You blokes don't all have problems with your prostates, perchance ?

[lynn cates]

pit stop

Hello Ruby. It's a fact of life for us old folks. But I have had a few female students who could not endure a 75 minute lecture without at least one visit.

Cheers.
LC