"I think I know him"

[jerryd]

Michael,
Given that you seem to believe the first two canonical murders were committed by a mad butcher, what kind of killer do you think Eddowes not only believed she knew, but believed had more ready cash than a banker?

Along those lines, the day following her statement of knowing who the killer was she supposedly headed to Bermondsey to beg money from her daughter Annie. Annie claimed she held back her new address from her mother because she didn't want her begging for money. Three to four weeks prior to her murder, Catherine stayed at her sister Eliza's place at 6 Thrawl Street to take care of her while she was ill. One week prior to her mother's murder,her daughter Annie yelled up to the window at 6 Thrawl Street to ask Eliza if she had seen her mother.

So, during the time Kate said she knew who the murderer was and was going to collect the reward, and when she supposedly went to Bermondsey the next day, she was obviously in need of money. It sounds like she had ample time to go to the police to proclaim her suspect and she didn't. She also didn't end up finding her daughter on that visit yet somehow ended up drunk in Aldgate. Also, as adamant as Annie was NOT to see her mother, I find it interesting she is seeking her out a week before her murder. Her ex-husband (Thomas Conway) and two boys lived not far from Annie in Walworth at the time. Although Annie attended the funeral of her mother, neither of the boys nor her ex-husband were reported as being there.

Was she possibly seeking out Thomas Conway for money and not her daughter?

[Sam Flynn]

The MP for Whitechapel, Mr Montagu, offered to pay a reward of £100 on 10th Sept.

Thanks for the correction, Josh (and Jerry for his subsequent posts).

[Harry D]

Michael,
Given that you seem to believe the first two canonical murders were committed by a mad butcher, what kind of killer do you think Eddowes not only believed she knew, but believed had more ready cash than a banker?

Don't forget that Kate's killer also had the same proclivity for post-mortem mutilation and the skill to excise internal organs in a tight-spot. Instead of just slashing her throat a la Stride or Coles, Kate's killer took the needless risk of aping the Ripper to cover his tracks.

[c.d.]

Unfortunately we will never know. She might have had some idea of who the Ripper was and she may or may not have been correct. On the other hand, she might simply have been talking ****.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Unfortunately we will never know. She might have had some idea of who the Ripper was and she may or may not have been correct. On the other hand, she might simply have been talking ****.

c.d.

Bingo. Wasn’t she the one who said she was on some famous ship disaster?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,
Given that you seem to believe the first two canonical murders were committed by a mad butcher, what kind of killer do you think Eddowes not only believed she knew, but believed had more ready cash than a banker?

My thinking Josh is that her killer, or the man who wanted her dead, had other fish frying at the time of Eddowes appearance, perhaps something like the Post Office robbery, or something related to ongoing plots to subvert the government and cause terror. Many people who are in the Parnell Commission view have lots of money, engage in illegal activities and would probably resort to silencing someone who put their wealth, risk or cause in jeopardy.

A small, poor and unconnected woman posed little threat to such a person, unless he had something on them of course. there are odd little bits of evidence in this killing, and I would never read a "kill to obtain a kidney" from the known evidence. I do however believe Annies killer killed to get what he got. And I also know that within certain illegitimate groups of the era there had been cases of people loosing their lips and ending up dead with cuts to their face and nose as a warning to others.

[Michael W Richards]

Don't forget that Kate's killer also had the same proclivity for post-mortem mutilation and the skill to excise internal organs in a tight-spot. Instead of just slashing her throat a la Stride or Coles, Kate's killer took the needless risk of aping the Ripper to cover his tracks.

To engage in something doesnt equate to a proclivity, burning desire or obsession Harry. If anyone wanted or felt they needed to kill someone during that period they would be fools not to try and disguise the act to be reminiscent of the first 2 mutilation murders...since there wasnt a single clue as to that killers identity. Its an obvious opportunity to misdirect. Although I dont see emulation in room 13, should you be interested. I see someone pissed off, curious, lost and losing his mind.

The attempts to belittle speculative opinions Harry seem to suggest you consider the traditional speculation about a mad serial killer running amok, without any local competition, to kill every woman in the Unsolved murders file, more palatable.

Thats fine. It also a theory no more proven than any of the speculative remarks I have made over these past 10+ years here. Ive cited the glass house analogy before, but I suppose that when someone feels superior enough to dismiss rational and reasonable extensions of the known evidence in favour of the seemingly safer, yet highly speculative world of serial mania, I wont win points with you anytime soon.

And yet I sleep well.....

[Robert St Devil]

It sounds like she had ample time to go to the police to proclaim her suspect and she didn't. She also didn't end up finding her daughter on that visit yet somehow ended up drunk in Aldgate.

She also didn't tell John Kelly the identity of "Leather Apron",seems like an odd bit of information to overlook telling to her "spouse" of several years.

[Wickerman]

Little by little everyone is tiptoeing down the same path, that Eddowes knew something.
C'mon guys.....

[Jon Guy]

As far as I know, Jerry, there was no reward in place until after Eddowes' death - another reason why I suspect that the story of her returning to London to claim the (non-existent) reward was apocryphal.

Hi Sam

There was this article in The Star 11t Sept:

REWARDS OFFERED.

Mr. S. Montagu, M.P., has offered £100 as a reward for the capture of the Whitechapel murderer, and has asked Superintendent Arnold to issue notices to that effect.

This morning posters are being posted up all over Whitechapel, offering a reward in these terms:-

"Finding that, in spite of murders being committed in our midst, our police force are still inadequate to discover the author or authors of the late atrocities, we, the undersigned, have formed ourselves into a committee and intend offering a substantial reward to anyone, citizen or otherwise, who shall give such information that will bring the murderer or murderers to justice." The committee meets every evening at nine o'clock at the Crown, 74, Mile-end-road.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Sam

There was this article in The Star 11t Sept:

REWARDS OFFERED.

Mr. S. Montagu, M.P., has offered £100 as a reward for the capture of the Whitechapel murderer, and has asked Superintendent Arnold to issue notices to that effect.

This morning posters are being posted up all over Whitechapel, offering a reward in these terms:-

"Finding that, in spite of murders being committed in our midst, our police force are still inadequate to discover the author or authors of the late atrocities, we, the undersigned, have formed ourselves into a committee and intend offering a substantial reward to anyone, citizen or otherwise, who shall give such information that will bring the murderer or murderers to justice." The committee meets every evening at nine o'clock at the Crown, 74, Mile-end-road.

ED: Have just seen JRs earlier post pointing out the above

[Michael W Richards]

Although Annie attended the funeral of her mother, neither of the boys nor her ex-husband were reported as being there.

Was she possibly seeking out Thomas Conway for money and not her daughter?

I found that to be an interesting perspective Jerry, because I don't think someone tattoos the initials of someone prominently on a forearm without believing there is a permanent connection there. Her relationship with Kelly seems like a mutually beneficial alliance more than a heartfelt relationship, and so the idea that she might still be in close touch with Conway, and perhaps the circle of Irish friends they hung out with..on both sides of that revolutionary fence...might be an Irish connection that carries on into this murder.

I keep finding myself led back to the Parnell Commission...the international espionage, the double spies, the informants, the Irish self rule factions, the idea that those factions have secured a place in Parliament...there were lots of people involved, many with access to some serious money, and many of whom had secrets and aspirations that could be instantly exposed and derailed by a suggestion of linkage to the ongoing street women murders going on locally. An example......a double agent witness at the Parnell Commission requested 10,000L to testify. He got 5,000L. Do you have any idea how vast that sum was at that time? Even today, the equivalent of that sum would be ridiculous. Would someone involved with those kinds of sums let a story come out that he or associates of his were also committing horrific murders across Londons East End? In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.

[Sam Flynn]

In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.

It's a well known fact that terrorists have a penchant for targeting middle aged, drunken, itinerant bag-ladies.

[Joshua Rogan]

Along those lines, the day following her statement of knowing who the killer was she supposedly headed to Bermondsey to beg money from her daughter Annie. Annie claimed she held back her new address from her mother because she didn't want her begging for money. Three to four weeks prior to her murder, Catherine stayed at her sister Eliza's place at 6 Thrawl Street to take care of her while she was ill. One week prior to her mother's murder,her daughter Annie yelled up to the window at 6 Thrawl Street to ask Eliza if she had seen her mother.

Interesting Jerry, where did you learn that?

So, during the time Kate said she knew who the murderer was and was going to collect the reward, and when she supposedly went to Bermondsey the next day, she was obviously in need of money. It sounds like she had ample time to go to the police to proclaim her suspect and she didn't. She also didn't end up finding her daughter on that visit yet somehow ended up drunk in Aldgate. Also, as adamant as Annie was NOT to see her mother, I find it interesting she is seeking her out a week before her murder. Her ex-husband (Thomas Conway) and two boys lived not far from Annie in Walworth at the time. Although Annie attended the funeral of her mother, neither of the boys nor her ex-husband were reported as being there.

Was she possibly seeking out Thomas Conway for money and not her daughter?

I don't think so....Annie states at inquest that she hadn't seen Conway or her brothers for 18 months and had no idea where they lived now. She also says they avoided Kate for the same reason she herself did.
Kate was buried on 8th Oct, but Conway didn't come forward until the 15th as he apparently had not been reading the papers. He too claimed to actively avoid Kate.

[Michael W Richards]

It's a well known fact that terrorists have a penchant for targeting middle aged, drunken, itinerant bag-ladies.

Not used to a mocking style from you Sam, but obviously the acts, not the specifics of the targets, are what I referred to. Acts intended to unsettle and frighten. As has been clear for many years here, I look for viable storylines for each murder as individual murders, something unfamiliar with most Ripperology theorists. No single suspect chase. No assigning any extra-Canonical murder victim to those cases based on the premise I suppose that only one killer can operate in a district at any one time. No assumptions that acts that are by definition public disturbances cannot have anything to do with other public disturbances of a different nature. The facts are there Sam....just one year from the failed Jubilee plot, just one year from the Socialist uprising in Trafalgar, during the Parnell Commission hearings and while an ongoing Assassination plot against Balfour was being planned.

I think imaging a complete cessation of all other illegal goings on in East London in the Fall of 1888 by any individual party in favour of a single, mad, malleable killer who is unchallenged in his callousness and low regard for human life is... frankly...absurd.