"I think I know him"

[Jon Guy]

I was being poetic, Jon

Trying to make sense of that scenario, Jon
It does work if Eddowes was not supposed to be picked up by the police.
Keep her close through drink, being careful not to let anyone know she`s with you, and then she is followed as she wanders off back to F&D St.
Goulston Street was just around the corner so perhaps the murder site was set by the assassins.

[Jon Guy]

My guess is that the meeting with Sailor Man was scheduled for midnight, the man waited because he knew at some point she would scurry over when she was released. IF in fact we have a legitimate sighting of Kate by Lawende. Something I highly doubt. But for the sake of argument I give Sailor Man a possible viable sighting.

If that was the case Mike, I`d say Sailor Man was waiting for her in the shadows outside Bishopsgate Police station.

[Jon Guy]

There was Edward McKenna.

The local oddball who had also been hop picking. He was picked up by police and questioned about the murders.

If her suspect wasn`t him, it could have been someone like that. A nut returning from the hops just as the murders commence.

A little bit more meat re: McKenna and Eddowes

On 8th Sept the Star reporter speaks to a Ten Bells barman who states that earlier that day: The proprietor of the Ten Bells is Mr. E. Waldron. The house stands on the corner of Spitalfields Market, and opens early for the convenience of those who bring their goods from the country. One of the assistants gave some information to our reporter with reference to the rumor that the murdered woman was seen there this morning. He said: A woman did call in here about five o'clock. She was poorly dressed, having no bodice to her skirt. She was middle-aged. She just had something to drink, when a man called for her. He just popped his head in the door and retired immediately afterwards. He had on a little skull cap, and was, as far as I could see, without a coat. But he gave me no opportunity of seeing him. I think, however, I should know his face again, and I think I would also know the woman. The description of the woman corresponds to a certain extent, especially with regard to age, hair, and clothing, with that of the victim of to-day.

McKenna habitually wore a skull cap and had been hop picking.
Eddowes may have seen the above newspaper report as they would be following the murders and the Ten Bells was local to her.
On 14th Sept McKenna is taken into custody for behaving strangely with a knife, again this is in the paper.

[Michael W Richards]

If that was the case Mike, I`d say Sailor Man was waiting for her in the shadows outside Bishopsgate Police station.

The problem with that Jon is that for it to have been Sailor man as the culprit...with her and Kate being seen by Lawende and the other 2 wise men around 1:35, there is very little time to get her into the square, to do all he did, and to still be able to leave before Watkins pass. Nigh impossible actually. I believe she was in the square before that...there were many vacant house/warehouses in there. That gives the killer time from Watkins previous pass, 15-20 minutes earlier. Plus, it wouldn't take 35 minutes for her to get to the square, if she had a meet, she would have headed there directly. Her meet may well have been where she was killed.

Maybe the detectives searching nearby alleys had a tip a meeting was taking place, because there was no urgent reason to have 3 detectives searching alleys after midnight. Not in the city anyway.

[Joshua Rogan]

What would give Eddowes the idea that a sailor, a hop-picker or indeed anyone she knew would be willing or able to pay her substantially more for her silence than the extraordinary sum of £500?

[jerryd]

My question is this. What reward was she seeking? Any reward requested to the government was turned down at this point. Wasn't it? That is part of the reason the Vigilance Committee was formed and they began raising money in September to offer a reward of their own. It wasn't until the end part of September that they raised 50 pounds and offered their reward.

If I have my information correct here it raises a couple of points.

1) Did Catherine know before she left for hop picking about any reward? Maybe she heard of discussions amongst Vigilance Committee members who were raising the money before she left?
2) Upon returning from hop picking did she hear about the reward and due to a desperate need for money at the time she mentioned to the lodging house keeper she was back to collect the reward?

Guess I need to go back and look at the exact dates the VC reward was posted and offered.

[Sam Flynn]

As far as I know, Jerry, there was no reward in place until after Eddowes' death - another reason why I suspect that the story of her returning to London to claim the (non-existent) reward was apocryphal.

[Joshua Rogan]

As far as I know, Jerry, there was no reward in place until after Eddowes' death - another reason why I suspect that the story of her returning to London to claim the (non-existent) reward was apocryphal.

The MP for Whitechapel, Mr Montagu, offered to pay a reward of £100 on 10th Sept. Although the offer was turned down by the Home Secretary, it had already been published in the papers on 12th Sept so he felt obliged to honour it anyway. Letter to Warren, 18th Sept;

"Under these circumstances it is too late to withdraw my offer & in case information is received, leading to conviction of the murderer or murderers, I must pay £100. to the person entitled to receive it."

Presumably this is the reward on the poster outside Miller's Court.


.....perhaps it was Montagu who killed Eddowes so he didn't have to pay out?

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Montagu,_1st_Baron_Swaythling

Tried to offer ...... did not accept the offer .......

[jerryd]

The MP for Whitechapel, Mr Montagu, offered to pay a reward of £100 on 10th Sept. Although the offer was turned down by the Home Secretary, it had already been published in the papers on 12th Sept so he felt obliged to honour it anyway. Letter to Warren, 18th Sept;

"Under these circumstances it is too late to withdraw my offer & in case information is received, leading to conviction of the murderer or murderers, I must pay £100. to the person entitled to receive it."

Presumably this is the reward on the poster outside Miller's Court.


.....perhaps it was Montagu who killed Eddowes so he didn't have to pay out?

Thanks Joshua,

I guess this reward was out there at the time as well.

Times
September 17th 1888.

ONE HUNDRED POUNDS REWARD - The Whitechapel Murder

The proprietor of the Illustrated Police News offers the above reward to any person who will give information as to the perpetrator of the crime of the murder of Mrs. Chapman. The above reward will be paid upon conviction of the murderer. Office, No. 286, Strand.

[jerryd]

Looks like some H Division coppers stepped up, too.

Times (London)
September 17, 1888
THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS.

So anxious are the police to bring home the crime to the murderer that the members of the H Division have actually subscribed amongst themselves a sum of £50 to supplement the reward of £100 offered by Mr. Samuel Montagu, M.P. The money will be paid to anyone who may confidentially place themselves in communication with the authorities at any of the local police stations. Since this report has spread amongst the frequenters of the common lodging houses, the secrecy hitherto observed by some men and women who knew Annie Chapman has been partially broken. Two of her associates have come forward and made statements as to the woman's movements during the week prior to her death.

[Joshua Rogan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel...ron_Swaythling

Thanks, Dave, some interesting local history there.

Tried to offer ...... did not accept the offer .......

As per post above, he felt obliged to honour the offer anyway, as a private reward, since it had already been reported in the press.

The vigilance committee announced it's intention to offer a further reward on 14th Sept, and ongoing proceeds towards it on 22nd Sept.

[Joshua Rogan]

Nice one, Jerry. I had a feeling at least one paper had offered money, but interesting to know the cops thought it might help too.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks for the validations on the reward offer gents, as I mentioned the offer was a cumulative affair, and not a single offer of x amount by the government.

The way I see this, even 100L was substantial to an East End inhabitant at the time, but if they believed they could get more, perhaps the individual would be willing to compromise their ethics for some more serious dough. Not that turning in a suspected killer is ethically challenged, only doing so only for reward money in my opinion is.

[Joshua Rogan]

Michael,
Given that you seem to believe the first two canonical murders were committed by a mad butcher, what kind of killer do you think Eddowes not only believed she knew, but believed had more ready cash than a banker?