"I think I know him"

[jerryd]

Suppose I was a little peeved last post Josh, not good form. I do intend to fade away shortly because Ive determined that this myth is far to ingrained to topple. And because any ideas that are thrown against the wall for discussion are mocked or ridiculed...despite the fact that the posters doing so know very well I am well versed in these cases, as are other Canonical dissenters, and we are not incapable of logical and reasonable ideas.

Kate may well have tried to blackmail someone with more at stake than being tried for some street prostitute murders in the ghetto, and she may well have been mutilated so that the investigation would be pointed away from any real motive and onto an unknown, suspected mad, serial killer. Whom the police knew nothing about. Those are real possibilities, as are others. The only real impossibility is that a killer thought to have medical grade knife and anatomy skills in the beginning of September loses both with a month.

I don't discount the possibility at all myself, Michael. Mitre Square was a known location for the Irish dynamiters in 84-85. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just off Mitre Square on Hounsditch was being used by Abberline to question and sequester a witness in the Cleveland Steet Scandal in 1889 so may have been in use for other police surveillance type acvtivity in 1888. It's been suggested that the reason PC Pearce was housed in Mitre Square was to watch for this type of illegal activity.

[Michael W Richards]

Suppose I was a little peeved last post Josh, not good form. I do intend to fade away shortly because Ive determined that this myth is far to ingrained to topple. And because any ideas that are thrown against the wall for discussion are mocked or ridiculed...despite the fact that the posters doing so know very well I am well versed in these cases, as are other Canonical dissenters, and we are not incapable of logical and reasonable ideas.

Kate may well have tried to blackmail someone with more at stake than being tried for some street prostitute murders in the ghetto, and she may well have been mutilated so that the investigation would be pointed away from any real motive and onto an unknown, suspected mad, serial killer. Whom the police knew nothing about. Those are real possibilities, as are others. The only real impossibility is that a killer thought to have medical grade knife and anatomy skills in the beginning of September loses both with a month.

[Michael W Richards]

Let me get this straight....
Eddowes suspects an acquaintance of hers is Jack, and, rather than take the life-changing monetary reward for turning them in, tries to extort even more money from this person who she thinks is a homicidal maniac, but in fact isn't the killer of Chapman and Nichols. Actually, they are a well-funded revolutionary agent involved in international espionage and political intrigue at the highest level, but working deep under cover in the doss-houses of Whitechapel. Despite apparently having almost limitless funds, they decide - in order to avoid being linked to the killings by Kate - to link themselves to the killings by murdering Kate and making it look like the previous murders. But not enough like them to convince everyone.......Is that what you're suggesting?

That's your storyline created from pieces of factual information I cited. If creating comical storylines out of factual data appeals to you, then that's not my problem.

There is a story that Kate was going to squeal on someone she suspected was capable of murdering the previous victims. If you don't think that person existed, fine, But if he did, then he is capable of killing her to shut her up. The actual slicing and dicing is secondary to the motive. Annies killer killed her so that he could obtain what he did, claimed by the man who examined her, no-on in their right mind would suggest that Kate was killed so the man could get a kidney and a partial uterus, and that the slicing of her face, the sectioning of colon, the tearing and cutting of her apron was required to do so.

" No meaningless cuts".

Irish revolutionaries were the topic of the day, aside from these murders, and money, large money was being handed out to spies and informants, and secrets were being protected. Living the life of an ostrich isn't really the best way to possibly solve these, is it Josh?

Here is an example. Anderson was on record paying money to people that the previous year planned to kill the Queen, and at the time of the murders, was planning to kill Balfour. Think anyone in that group would kill to protect secrets or incomes? Homeless street women? I cant see a reason to hesitate if youre that kind of fellow myself. Nor to cut up the victim to emulate a series of murders that the police had zero chance of solving at that time. People who kill often do things to the bodies to aid in dispersing the evidence, confuse the investigators and deflect attention from the real motives. I cant believe how often I have to point out the bleeding obvious here.

I don't plan on posting here much longer, Ive exhausted my patience for having an uproven argument set against the bigger unproven 125yr plus argument,.... a single, mad serial killer of the Canonical Group, mocked by creating an obviously comical farce based loosely on the actual facts. So no worries...Ive given up trying to get folks to the reality trough. I just wish that there were more enlightened arguments, and less dismissal of possible storylines that have backing within the known evidence.

There were double agents, dynamiters, murderers and every sort of bad guy in that East End at that time, to dismiss the possibility that any of those might have some role in any of the 13 plus unsolved murders that took place there is naïve at best, and idiotic at the worst.

Jack, the skill changing, super sleuth who morphs each murder and kills only to satisfy his blood lust and the only killer running around the East End at that time.......I mean, ...c'mon.

[Joshua Rogan]

I found that to be an interesting perspective Jerry, because I don't think someone tattoos the initials of someone prominently on a forearm without believing there is a permanent connection there. Her relationship with Kelly seems like a mutually beneficial alliance more than a heartfelt relationship, and so the idea that she might still be in close touch with Conway, and perhaps the circle of Irish friends they hung out with..on both sides of that revolutionary fence...might be an Irish connection that carries on into this murder.

I keep finding myself led back to the Parnell Commission...the international espionage, the double spies, the informants, the Irish self rule factions, the idea that those factions have secured a place in Parliament...there were lots of people involved, many with access to some serious money, and many of whom had secrets and aspirations that could be instantly exposed and derailed by a suggestion of linkage to the ongoing street women murders going on locally. An example......a double agent witness at the Parnell Commission requested 10,000L to testify. He got 5,000L. Do you have any idea how vast that sum was at that time? Even today, the equivalent of that sum would be ridiculous. Would someone involved with those kinds of sums let a story come out that he or associates of his were also committing horrific murders across Londons East End? In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.

Let me get this straight....
Eddowes suspects an acquaintance of hers is Jack, and, rather than take the life-changing monetary reward for turning them in, tries to extort even more money from this person who she thinks is a homicidal maniac, but in fact isn't the killer of Chapman and Nichols. Actually, they are a well-funded revolutionary agent involved in international espionage and political intrigue at the highest level, but working deep under cover in the doss-houses of Whitechapel. Despite apparently having almost limitless funds, they decide - in order to avoid being linked to the killings by Kate - to link themselves to the killings by murdering Kate and making it look like the previous murders. But not enough like them to convince everyone.......Is that what you're suggesting?

[Michael W Richards]

There wasn't a single clue as to the killer of any of the Whitechapel victims, including the 'non-canonicals'. The closest we ever got was James Sadler in the Frances Coles murder, but despite his troubled relationship with the victim and the other evidence against him (the blunt knife, the bloodstained clothes, etc.) he was still cleared, even though the police continued to suspect him.

That's why it's a preposterous notion that Eddowes was extensively mutilated to cover the killer's true motive. I don't think you could even make such an argument for Alice McKenzie, whose mutilations were much tamer by comparison, but at least I could see some logic there.

Alice McKenzie was killed in very similar fashion to Polly and Annie, if anything, she belongs in a Jack the Ripper Canonical Group with the aforementioned.

The notion isn't so preposterous to those of us that read daily papers and see murder victims and crime scenes intentionally muddled with by the culprit to confuse any investigations. Like someone piecing up a victim to scatter the remains, when all that was intended was murder, not dismemberment. A pre-existing series of killings without any semblance of a clue as to whom was committing them is practically an invitation to people like the above.

[DJA]

Daily News
United Kingdom
4 October 1888

I cannot imagine what she was doing in Mitre-square. ["] [/I]

Doubt she was visiting Mitre Square.

If Jack's bolt hole was in Mitre Street,number 6 for example,a lot of the timing makes sense.

[jerryd]

The bit about Annie asking after her mother a week before she was killed. I don't recall hearing that before (although my memory's not what it was).

Somewhere in my imgur files I have a clip that says she yells up to the window to Eliza. It then goes on to say Eliza didn't know if Annie and Kate met up that day or not. I will continue to look for it. Until then, I found this one. The part in bold, of course, is the sentence referring to Annie inquiring about her mother.

Daily News
United Kingdom
4 October 1888

Last night Eliza Gold, or Frost, the sister, who lives at 6, Thrawl-street, Spitalfields, made the following statement. She did this with difficulty, as she is suffering from a serious attack of illness consequent on the sudden discovery of her sister's shocking end. "It was this morning," she said, "when I was called to the mortuary to identify her, poor girl-I never dreamed that she would come to such an end as this, and I can't get over it. I really don't know how old she was, but I am fifty-two, and she was considerably younger. Perhaps she was about forty-two. She was born at Wolverhampton. All of us were born there. She was not married to Conway, but she went to live with him while in London. She has lived here almost all her life. Her name was Catherine Eddowes. Conway was in the army, but I don't know in what regiment. She had two or three children by him. It's rather strange-one of them, the girl that's married, came to me last week and asked me if I had seen anything of her mother. She said it was a very long time since she had seen her; but it was a long time since I had, too, and I told her so. In fact I have not seen her much oftener than once or twice since she has been with Kelly, though we lived so close together. We were not on the best of terms. I think it is only five or six years since Conway left her. Then she got in with Kelly, and I believe she has stuck to him all along. I certainly don't think she ever went out with other men, though I have told you that I did not see much of her. She was always a regular jolly sort, but she would never do anything wrong. I cannot imagine what she was doing in Mitre-square. ["]

[Harry D]

To engage in something doesnt equate to a proclivity, burning desire or obsession Harry. If anyone wanted or felt they needed to kill someone during that period they would be fools not to try and disguise the act to be reminiscent of the first 2 mutilation murders...since there wasnt a single clue as to that killers identity.

There wasn't a single clue as to the killer of any of the Whitechapel victims, including the 'non-canonicals'. The closest we ever got was James Sadler in the Frances Coles murder, but despite his troubled relationship with the victim and the other evidence against him (the blunt knife, the bloodstained clothes, etc.) he was still cleared, even though the police continued to suspect him.

That's why it's a preposterous notion that Eddowes was extensively mutilated to cover the killer's true motive. I don't think you could even make such an argument for Alice McKenzie, whose mutilations were much tamer by comparison, but at least I could see some logic there.

[Joshua Rogan]

Bingo. Wasn’t she the one who said she was on some famous ship disaster?

I think that it was Stride, not Eddowes, who claimed her husband had drowned in the Princess's Alice disaster.

[Joshua Rogan]

Learn what, Joshua? Most of what I said that you quoted is in Eliza Gold's Inquest testimony in one paper or another.

The bit about Annie asking after her mother a week before she was killed. I don't recall hearing that before (although my memory's not what it was).

[jerryd]

Interesting Jerry, where did you learn that?

Learn what, Joshua? Most of what I said that you quoted is in Eliza Gold's Inquest testimony in one paper or another.

[Michael W Richards]

It's a well known fact that terrorists have a penchant for targeting middle aged, drunken, itinerant bag-ladies.

Not used to a mocking style from you Sam, but obviously the acts, not the specifics of the targets, are what I referred to. Acts intended to unsettle and frighten. As has been clear for many years here, I look for viable storylines for each murder as individual murders, something unfamiliar with most Ripperology theorists. No single suspect chase. No assigning any extra-Canonical murder victim to those cases based on the premise I suppose that only one killer can operate in a district at any one time. No assumptions that acts that are by definition public disturbances cannot have anything to do with other public disturbances of a different nature. The facts are there Sam....just one year from the failed Jubilee plot, just one year from the Socialist uprising in Trafalgar, during the Parnell Commission hearings and while an ongoing Assassination plot against Balfour was being planned.

I think imaging a complete cessation of all other illegal goings on in East London in the Fall of 1888 by any individual party in favour of a single, mad, malleable killer who is unchallenged in his callousness and low regard for human life is... frankly...absurd.

[Joshua Rogan]

Along those lines, the day following her statement of knowing who the killer was she supposedly headed to Bermondsey to beg money from her daughter Annie. Annie claimed she held back her new address from her mother because she didn't want her begging for money. Three to four weeks prior to her murder, Catherine stayed at her sister Eliza's place at 6 Thrawl Street to take care of her while she was ill. One week prior to her mother's murder,her daughter Annie yelled up to the window at 6 Thrawl Street to ask Eliza if she had seen her mother.

Interesting Jerry, where did you learn that?

So, during the time Kate said she knew who the murderer was and was going to collect the reward, and when she supposedly went to Bermondsey the next day, she was obviously in need of money. It sounds like she had ample time to go to the police to proclaim her suspect and she didn't. She also didn't end up finding her daughter on that visit yet somehow ended up drunk in Aldgate. Also, as adamant as Annie was NOT to see her mother, I find it interesting she is seeking her out a week before her murder. Her ex-husband (Thomas Conway) and two boys lived not far from Annie in Walworth at the time. Although Annie attended the funeral of her mother, neither of the boys nor her ex-husband were reported as being there.

Was she possibly seeking out Thomas Conway for money and not her daughter?

I don't think so....Annie states at inquest that she hadn't seen Conway or her brothers for 18 months and had no idea where they lived now. She also says they avoided Kate for the same reason she herself did.
Kate was buried on 8th Oct, but Conway didn't come forward until the 15th as he apparently had not been reading the papers. He too claimed to actively avoid Kate.

[Sam Flynn]

In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.

It's a well known fact that terrorists have a penchant for targeting middle aged, drunken, itinerant bag-ladies.

[Michael W Richards]

Although Annie attended the funeral of her mother, neither of the boys nor her ex-husband were reported as being there.

Was she possibly seeking out Thomas Conway for money and not her daughter?

I found that to be an interesting perspective Jerry, because I don't think someone tattoos the initials of someone prominently on a forearm without believing there is a permanent connection there. Her relationship with Kelly seems like a mutually beneficial alliance more than a heartfelt relationship, and so the idea that she might still be in close touch with Conway, and perhaps the circle of Irish friends they hung out with..on both sides of that revolutionary fence...might be an Irish connection that carries on into this murder.

I keep finding myself led back to the Parnell Commission...the international espionage, the double spies, the informants, the Irish self rule factions, the idea that those factions have secured a place in Parliament...there were lots of people involved, many with access to some serious money, and many of whom had secrets and aspirations that could be instantly exposed and derailed by a suggestion of linkage to the ongoing street women murders going on locally. An example......a double agent witness at the Parnell Commission requested 10,000L to testify. He got 5,000L. Do you have any idea how vast that sum was at that time? Even today, the equivalent of that sum would be ridiculous. Would someone involved with those kinds of sums let a story come out that he or associates of his were also committing horrific murders across Londons East End? In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.