AC and TOD

[Wickerman]

As flippantly as it is dismissed, I have to admit that Fisherman makes a reasonable point; unless she was a complete idiot, she had to have a reason for believing she could distinguish between the chimes of 5:15 and 5:30; it would have been utterly stupid of her to insist on one time rather than the other if the clock didn't differentiate, and she must have been familiar with it.

The quarter-hour chimes were all different at local churches when I was a kid. They had to be for the very reason being made here - people had to know the difference across the audible range, obviously out of sight of the clock. Plus, not all churches had clocks, so far more people would hear the time than would see the time.

I'm more inclined to accept that each quarter-hour clock chime was easily distinguishable, than Mrs Long correctly recognised Chapman. After all, Long had never seen the woman before, and the body she saw in the mortuary was likely not clothed but covered by a linen sheet, only exposing the face.
So, if Long was correct about the time, then she dismissed herself as a witness, in my opinion.
However, I realize to take that view places a great deal on the evidence of Cadosch, which may not be warranted.

[Varqm]

The quarter-hour chimes were all different at local churches when I was a kid. They had to be for the very reason being made here - people had to know the difference across the audible range, obviously out of sight of the clock. Plus, not all churches had clocks, so far more people would hear the time than would see the time.

I'm more inclined to accept that each quarter-hour clock chime was easily distinguishable, than Mrs Long correctly recognised Chapman. After all, Long had never seen the woman before, and the body she saw in the mortuary was likely not clothed but covered by a linen sheet, only exposing the face.
So, if Long was correct about the time, then she dismissed herself as a witness, in my opinion.
However, I realize to take that view places a great deal on the evidence of Cadosch, which may not be warranted.

In your case how far would the church clock chime be audible?

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[Wickerman]

In your case how far would the church clock chime be audible?

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I just used Google Earth to look down on the part of town I lived in when a kid.
According to G.E., the nearest church to my house was 265 meters, or 289 yds, in a direct line from my house.
Never once did we hear church bells.
The town market place was 100 yds nearer to the church than our house and you could clearly hear the bells from there.

Much depends on the height of buildings between you and the church, and the time of day, as noise carries further at night due to less noise pollution.

Here is a link that offers a range of opinions...

https://little-details.livejournal.com/1945635.html

[Sam Flynn]

According to G.E., the nearest church to my house was 265 meters, or 289 yds, in a direct line from my house.
Never once did we hear church bells.

I live one and a quarter miles from my town's church clock, whose Westminster chimes I can hear from my back garden. They're not loud, admittedly, but I can and do hear them frequently.

[Ginger]

As a child, I lived 0.85 miles from a Catholic church which chimed the quarter hours. You could hear the chimes day or night if there was no masking noise, although obviously during the day you had traffic, lawnmowers, etc. In our case, the church was situated upon a hill, which placed it higher than pretty much the entire town, plus the bells were mounted in the steeple. At night, in my second-story bedroom with windows that faced the church, I have strong memories of reading or writing late at night, long after everyone else was asleep, being conscious of the passing time by the church chimes.

[Wickerman]

As a child, I lived 0.85 miles from a Catholic church which chimed the quarter hours.....

Hi Ginger.

Do you remember all the four the quarter-hour chimes being noticeably different?

[GUT]

Hi Ginger.

Do you remember all the four the quarter-hour chimes being noticeably different?

Our local just had one set of chimes once on the 1/4 twice on the half hour, three on the 3/4 hour and four times followed by individual gongs for the hours on the o’clock

[Ginger]

Hi Ginger.

Do you remember all the four the quarter-hour chimes being noticeably different?

They were, yes. They played the Westminster sequence. The bell that struck the hours wasn't nearly as deep-toned as Big Ben, though. It could sometimes put shivers down my spine, when the night was dead-quiet, and there I was, one of the very few awake to hear it.

[Varqm]

Interesting,about the chimes.Growing up we did not live near a church.When nearing the church on Sunday then you could hear it.As far as I could remember it only chimed when it's near mass time,near 6 am/pm everyday but more times/masses on Sundays.
If John Davies heard the Spitalfields clock I think Long would have.

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[Wickerman]

....
If John Davies heard the Spitalfields clock I think Long would have.

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True, but that argument also applies to Cadosch, who never mentioned hearing the clock at all.

I can imagine living within the range of the church bells they may become like background noise, when you hear them every 15 minutes of the day it doesn't always register anymore.
Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

[Sam Flynn]

Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

Perhaps he owned a watch or a clock of his own, and/or was so used to getting up at about the right time that he'd have no recourse for either. (I get up at the same time practically every day, regardless of whether it's a workday or not... annoyingly! My alarm clock is only there as a back-stop, and I'm invariably already up and about when it goes off.)

[Varqm]

True, but that argument also applies to Cadosch, who never mentioned hearing the clock at all.

I can imagine living within the range of the church bells they may become like background noise, when you hear them every 15 minutes of the day it doesn't always register anymore.
Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

True.Cadosch's time," I got up about a quarter past five in the morning" may also have been not accurate.But tracing back before checking the Spitalfields clock at 5:32 AM,the time spent doing that morning's routine "went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned" and "returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards.",and maybe 1-2 minutes walking from 29 Hanbury to Spitalfields church,it still would have been 5 or so minutes before 5:32 AM when the "No" and "fall against the fence" occurred.He was "aware" of the time,not to be late for work.

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[Varqm]

Perhaps he owned a watch or a clock of his own, and/or was so used to getting up at about the right time that he'd have no recourse for either. (I get up at the same time practically every day, regardless of whether it's a workday or not... annoyingly! My alarm clock is only there as a back-stop, and I'm invariably already up and about when it goes off.)

I agree,some kind of timepiece.

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[Wickerman]

I tend to feel that if Cadosch wore a watch, or owned a timepiece, he would have made reference to it.

Knowing the time was an important detail in any witness statement, which is why the doctors refer to their watch, Diemschutz to the tobacconists clock, Hutchinson to the Whitechapel church & Sarah Lewis to the Spitalfields church.
The only firm anchor for Cadosch is his reference to the Spitalfields clock, so that suggests to me he had no other means of knowing the time.

[Sam Flynn]

I tend to feel that if Cadosch wore a watch, or owned a timepiece, he would have made reference to it.

He didn't make reference to any public timepiece (church/brewery clock), either, so I don't think we can read too much into it.