AC and TOD

[Michael W Richards]

Theres no reason that I can see to assume Cadosche erred on his times, just like another witness in another murder who is inside the house for a period before being out where they can see or hear what they saw or heard, its likely they had access to clocks within their own homes. I cant imagine many were without some form of timepiece within their own walls. That puts the TOD at sometime just before half past, and 15-20 minutes for the body to cool.

[Varqm]

How widespread was clock or watch ownership among the Victorian working classes in 1888? I've always tended to think of clock ownership as quite low, but I'm no longer sure that this was necessarily the case.

Mark M. Smith, in "Mastered by the Clock: Time, Slavery, and Freedom in the American South" (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1997) asserts that by the 1880s, based on probate records, some 73% to 83% of American Southerners, blacks included, owned at least one clock or watch. Smith argues that clock ownership among ex-slaves was anomalously high*. My own reservation about this figure is that estates that produce probate proceedings are likelier to be those of the better off, who might be expected to own clocks. In support of his position, he summons some interesting anecdotal evidence as well, including the striking one of a poor black family whose mantel clock, visible through the window, was destroyed with a pistol shot (!) during racial unrest.

Obviously, British wage-labourers aren't equivalent to American ex-slaves, but I still tend to wonder whether clock ownership, especially among the better classes of workmen, might not have been higher than we normally think. For a construction worker such as Cadosch, whose place of work (and route thereto) changed as projects were completed and new ones begun, there'd be an obvious advantage to owning a timepiece. Did Cadosch perhaps leave a probate record?


* His argument, simplified, is that the clock, as a means of regulating work, was viewed as a symbol of socio-political power by ex-slaves.

Interesting.

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[Sam Flynn]

I was meaning his statement...
"It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church"

Sorry, I was referring to his getting up for work and the events in the back yard.

[Ginger]

How widespread was clock or watch ownership among the Victorian working classes in 1888? I've always tended to think of clock ownership as quite low, but I'm no longer sure that this was necessarily the case.

Mark M. Smith, in "Mastered by the Clock: Time, Slavery, and Freedom in the American South" (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1997) asserts that by the 1880s, based on probate records, some 73% to 83% of American Southerners, blacks included, owned at least one clock or watch. Smith argues that clock ownership among ex-slaves was anomalously high*. My own reservation about this figure is that estates that produce probate proceedings are likelier to be those of the better off, who might be expected to own clocks. In support of his position, he summons some interesting anecdotal evidence as well, including the striking one of a poor black family whose mantel clock, visible through the window, was destroyed with a pistol shot (!) during racial unrest.

Obviously, British wage-labourers aren't equivalent to American ex-slaves, but I still tend to wonder whether clock ownership, especially among the better classes of workmen, might not have been higher than we normally think. For a construction worker such as Cadosch, whose place of work (and route thereto) changed as projects were completed and new ones begun, there'd be an obvious advantage to owning a timepiece. Did Cadosch perhaps leave a probate record?


* His argument, simplified, is that the clock, as a means of regulating work, was viewed as a symbol of socio-political power by ex-slaves.

[Wickerman]

He didn't make reference to any public timepiece (church/brewery clock), either, so I don't think we can read too much into it.

I was meaning his statement...
"It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church".
Given the church had a clock it only seems reasonable to accept he was making reference to it. There doesn't seem to be any other reason to mention the church.

[Varqm]

I tend to feel that if Cadosch wore a watch, or owned a timepiece, he would have made reference to it.

Knowing the time was an important detail in any witness statement, which is why the doctors refer to their watch, Diemschutz to the tobacconists clock, Hutchinson to the Whitechapel church & Sarah Lewis to the Spitalfields church.
The only firm anchor for Cadosch is his reference to the Spitalfields clock, so that suggests to me he had no other means of knowing the time.

The most important thing was Cadosch's "No" and "fall against the fence" was before Long's 5:30 AM, by tracing back.
He must have some kind of timepiece.The coroner/jury did not ask,they also did not ask Long's exact address or where was the Brewery clock.

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[Sam Flynn]

I tend to feel that if Cadosch wore a watch, or owned a timepiece, he would have made reference to it.

He didn't make reference to any public timepiece (church/brewery clock), either, so I don't think we can read too much into it.

[Wickerman]

I tend to feel that if Cadosch wore a watch, or owned a timepiece, he would have made reference to it.

Knowing the time was an important detail in any witness statement, which is why the doctors refer to their watch, Diemschutz to the tobacconists clock, Hutchinson to the Whitechapel church & Sarah Lewis to the Spitalfields church.
The only firm anchor for Cadosch is his reference to the Spitalfields clock, so that suggests to me he had no other means of knowing the time.

[Varqm]

Perhaps he owned a watch or a clock of his own, and/or was so used to getting up at about the right time that he'd have no recourse for either. (I get up at the same time practically every day, regardless of whether it's a workday or not... annoyingly! My alarm clock is only there as a back-stop, and I'm invariably already up and about when it goes off.)

I agree,some kind of timepiece.

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[Varqm]

True, but that argument also applies to Cadosch, who never mentioned hearing the clock at all.

I can imagine living within the range of the church bells they may become like background noise, when you hear them every 15 minutes of the day it doesn't always register anymore.
Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

True.Cadosch's time," I got up about a quarter past five in the morning" may also have been not accurate.But tracing back before checking the Spitalfields clock at 5:32 AM,the time spent doing that morning's routine "went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned" and "returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards.",and maybe 1-2 minutes walking from 29 Hanbury to Spitalfields church,it still would have been 5 or so minutes before 5:32 AM when the "No" and "fall against the fence" occurred.He was "aware" of the time,not to be late for work.

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[Sam Flynn]

Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

Perhaps he owned a watch or a clock of his own, and/or was so used to getting up at about the right time that he'd have no recourse for either. (I get up at the same time practically every day, regardless of whether it's a workday or not... annoyingly! My alarm clock is only there as a back-stop, and I'm invariably already up and about when it goes off.)

[Wickerman]

....
If John Davies heard the Spitalfields clock I think Long would have.

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True, but that argument also applies to Cadosch, who never mentioned hearing the clock at all.

I can imagine living within the range of the church bells they may become like background noise, when you hear them every 15 minutes of the day it doesn't always register anymore.
Cadosch must have heard the clock as he was sure he got out of bed at 5:15, yet he doesn't refer to the chimes of the clock when leaving the house for work.

[Varqm]

Interesting,about the chimes.Growing up we did not live near a church.When nearing the church on Sunday then you could hear it.As far as I could remember it only chimed when it's near mass time,near 6 am/pm everyday but more times/masses on Sundays.
If John Davies heard the Spitalfields clock I think Long would have.

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[Ginger]

Hi Ginger.

Do you remember all the four the quarter-hour chimes being noticeably different?

They were, yes. They played the Westminster sequence. The bell that struck the hours wasn't nearly as deep-toned as Big Ben, though. It could sometimes put shivers down my spine, when the night was dead-quiet, and there I was, one of the very few awake to hear it.

[GUT]

Hi Ginger.

Do you remember all the four the quarter-hour chimes being noticeably different?

Our local just had one set of chimes once on the 1/4 twice on the half hour, three on the 3/4 hour and four times followed by individual gongs for the hours on the o’clock