AC and TOD

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Are you suggesting that Baxter brought up Phillips's ruminations about wrong TOD, knowing that he now had reassessed his TOD back to the original--if, indeed he did that?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Cooling

Yes, fever may cause very quick rigor mortis, that is true. A matter of minutes may suffice. What it does not do, however, is to turn the body cold in that same time! A dead body will normally start to stiffen after 2-3 hours, and it will first be limp but warm up till that stiffening begins, whereupon it will be stiff and warm for between 3-8 hours. After that stiff and cold applies, until rigor mortis tapers off.
When Phillips saw Chapman first the whole body was quite cold, apart from a little rest heat in the stomach area.
This is consistent, not with a quick fever rigor, but instead with her having been dead for a couple of hours.

Plus, of course, the onsetting rigor Phillips felt was ALSO consistent with a TOD two, three hours before he saw her. We cannot treat her as a certain case of fever, can we?

The best,
Fisherman

Hello Fish,

No, we can't say for certain, but she was ill. If it was TB her temperature would certainly have been up. Wasn't saying that she cooled down in a matter of minutes, just wondering whether the fact that she had a fever would affect her cooling down time - speed it up a little (Mpembas effect) or slow it down.

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Are you suggesting that Baxter brought up Phillips's ruminations about wrong TOD, knowing that he now had reassessed his TOD back to the original--if, indeed he did that?

Cheers.
LC

As far as I can tell, Baxter is saying the same thing the whole time - that Phillips said that he opted for two, three hours, but offered space for the chilly night having had some impact.
If you have any special wording or detail in mind, I´d appreciate if you came clear on it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Fish,

No, we can't say for certain, but she was ill. If it was TB her temperature would certainly have been up. Wasn't saying that she cooled down in a matter of minutes, just wondering whether the fact that she had a fever would affect her cooling down time - speed it up a little (Mpembas effect) or slow it down.

Best wishes,
C4

Well, let´s not forget the effect of chilly conditions on rigor mortis in this context - it slows it down.
And I am not certain that TBC patients have a constant fever - though I´m no doctor, so I´d need expertise to straighten that one out.

All the best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

same

Hello Christer. Thanks.

No, it looks the same to me as well.

Did not Phillips stick to his codicil about temperature, etc?

Perhaps the police saw things differently.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

No, it looks the same to me as well.

Did not Phillips stick to his codicil about temperature, etc?

Perhaps the police saw things differently.

Cheers.
LC

I think the police kept the possibility very much open that Richardson simply missed Chapman...

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

I suspect Phillips is using a number of criteria to judge time of death - rigor mortis, body temperature and stomach contents all come to mind...so I suspect his codicil, or caveat as I'd prefer to regard it, in respect of just one of these factors could hardly be said to invalidate his estimate...especially as the coldness that he mentions would actually extend the period before rigor set in.

All the best

Dave

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Those interested may want to read "Considerable Doubt and the Death of Annie Chapmen" found in the Dissertation section here on the Casebook.

Wolf.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Wolf

Yes I've read your thought-provoking dissertation and (at the risk of appearing a creep) hope my postings adequately reflect this!

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

I suspect Phillips is using a number of criteria to judge time of death - rigor mortis, body temperature and stomach contents all come to mind...so I suspect his codicil, or caveat as I'd prefer to regard it, in respect of just one of these factors could hardly be said to invalidate his estimate...especially as the coldness that he mentions would actually extend the period before rigor set in.

All the best

Dave

It also deserves to be pointed out - just like Wolf Vanderlinden does in the dissertation he mentions (a thoroughly good read and a brilliant piece of reasoning, by the way) - that much as Phillips did say that the chill could have an impact on the cooling off of the body, he does NOT say that he has not weighed this in, nor does he change his verdict in any way at all. He remains at the stance that Chapman was killed at the latest around 4.20 and quite probably before that.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

TB

Well, let´s not forget the effect of chilly conditions on rigor mortis in this context - it slows it down.
And I am not certain that TBC patients have a constant fever - though I´m no doctor, so I´d need expertise to straighten that one out.

All the best,
Fisherman

Hello Fish,

Fever is always present in active TB. Mind you, we can't be sure that that was what she was suffering from, of course.

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hello Fish,

Fever is always present in active TB. Mind you, we can't be sure that that was what she was suffering from, of course.

Best wishes,
C4

Her lungs and brain were diseased, that was what was said, right?

Just looked up the Mpemba effect, by the way - that would have had very marginal effects on Chapman, predisposing that she WAS feverish, methinks. And as Wolf V points out in his dissertation, Eddowes ´extensively mutilated body was "quite warm when examined" 40 minutes after her death in late september - so how could Chapman be stone cold after an hour?

It does not pan out.

If we accept Phillips, then we can sort Chapman in as dying at the approximate same time as Tabram and Nichols were killed - during the dark early morning hours. It makes a whole lot of sense to me.

All the best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Annie

Hello Fish,

I agree. Perhaps it is as simple as this. John was under the thumb of Ma Richardson and didn't want her to find out he hadn't bothered to check the cellar that day. People who lie often embroider - thus the leather and the boot (I was there, even sat on the step to cut a piece off from my boot), which led on to the carrot and the rabbit when he realised that being there with a knife was not a good idea.

I would like to see John Richardson as Jack, but can't get it to fit somehow.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

the question

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"I think the police kept the possibility very much open that Richardson simply missed Chapman."

Completely agree. Of course, the real question is, If Richardson had looked left at 4.45, would he have seen Annie?

My thought is that, No, he would not have.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

residual heat

Hello (again) Christer.

"How could Chapman be stone cold after an hour?"

Does Bagster EVER say this? Did he not claim some residual heat?

Cheers.
LC