AC and TOD

[Cogidubnus]

Tod

But first and foremost because the medical evidence is impossible to look away from. An icecold corpse, killed an hour before, with an onsetting rigor? Nah.

I'm feeling most uncomfortable about this Christer, but I find myself in a degree of agreement with you over this

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Hello All. If Annie Chapman died before 5.00, why didn't Davis hear someone in the passageway? He was awake from 3.00 until 5.00.

Cheers.
LC

Nobody heard the couple, Lynn. And they DID go through the passage. Just how awake and alert your guy was is anybody´s guess. À la Mulshaw, perhaps?

The best,
Fisherman

[Hunter]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Why do you think Annie died earlier?

When I held this view, it was because I believed that "Jack" was a shrewd and cunning monomaniac.

That's not a very good reason to hold a view on evidence -- then or now.

[Fisherman]

Having Cadosch hear the "no", and then a bump against the fence, at the same time that a body is lying there in the morning light is hardly convincing.

Cadosch could not specify where the "No" came from. And if we are to believe Long, it was not Chapman at any rate, since she would still have been out in the street. (Of course, if you ask me she was lying dead in the yard).
If something fell against the fence, and if that something was the somewhat heavy-set Annie Chapman, the crash would have been quite loud and Cadosh should perhaps have seen her through the fence, given the distance portrayed inbetween the boards in some contemporary drawings.

We would also need to accept that the Ripper chatted with Chapman before killing her. And if she was the party that said "No!", it´s strange that it took him three minutes to wrestle her down, during which time she kept completely quiet ...?

I find Phillips a lot more convincing than the combined efforts of Long/Cadosch/Richardson. And much more consistent. That´s all. My money is on a TOD of around the time when Lechmere passed on his way to job.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I'm feeling most uncomfortable about this Christer, but I find myself in a degree of agreement with you over this

All the best

Dave

**** happens, Dave. I´m sure we´ll find heaps of things to disagree on in days to come. There is hope!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Off to bed now! I´ll log in tomorrow again, of course...

Fisherman

[Chris]

Deleted.

[Abby Normal]

I really think people need to be aware that there's a considerable margin of error in the estimation of time of death from body temperature, even under 'normal' conditions today, with the benefit of accurate temperature measurements and a proper understanding of the physical processes involved.

Looking at the numbers, it is very difficult to believe that Dr Phillips, without actual measurements of either body or ambient temperature, without an accurate model of how post mortem temperature decreased with time and in exceptional circumstances (a disembowelled corpse), could have guessed the time of death with a margin of error less than several hours.

Hi Chris
I totally agree with this.

Let's see. We have a smallish woman, already ill, perhaps with the effects of alcohol, chilly morning with stomach ripped open and some innards removed and a Dr. Trying to establish inexact science of TOD vs. 3 witnesses who all corroborate her being alive later. I go with the latter.

Richardson probably would have seen chapmans body.
Long probably saw chapman alive.
Cadosh probably heard chapman.

The good dr. Was more than likely off on his approximation.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Dave. Thanks for that.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

backing off

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"Because the arguably most experienced medico in errands like these says so."

He said there may be exceptions. He backed off.

"I take it you would have liked me to answer "because it fits with the Lechmere scenario", and yes, it does. Plus it fits with the general timing of the other weekday killings. Plus it means that the killer did not take the risk of killing in daylight, and leaving the premises with blood on his hands."

Lechmere? Don't see the relevance of time for him.

"But first and foremost because the medical evidence is impossible to look away from. An icecold corpse. . ."

Overegging again?

". . . killed an hour before, with an onsetting rigor?"

Rigor can have onset in as little as ten minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

asleep

Hello (again) Christer. Thanks.

"Nobody heard the couple, Lynn."

Davis certainly did not. He fell asleep around 5.00, and he did not waken until 5.45--AFTER Jacob, er "Jack" left.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

amen

Hello Cris. Thanks.

"That's not a very good reason to hold a view on evidence -- then or now."

A hearty, "Amen."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

strangled

Hello Christer.

"And if she was the party that said "No!", it's strange that it took him three minutes to wrestle her down, during which time she kept completely quiet ...?"

It takes time to struggle (scratched neck) and be strangled. And often, people being strangled are fairly quiet.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Abby. Are we actually agreeing?

Good thinking.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

...And Chapman was quite cold, Eddowes was quite warm - once again the overlap is not there.

Is the glass half full, or half empty?