Jack, Son of Jack

[MayBea]

...He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911Census.

If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return...

He was actually John Sullivan when he served in India with the RHA/RFA so the adoption of the name Sullivan was at his enlistment in the Artillery regiment.

A name change when re-enlisting is common. But why did he deny being John Wilson to an officer of the Cameron Highlanders after his retirement?

The encounter happened during the time he was living in London. I'm thinking it had something to do with his real identity in connection to London.

[MayBea]

Have you ever traced the homes' records?

Re your Jack: A person I knew of many years ago was presumed killed in action in the Great War. However I dont know if he done a runner or what but he wasnt dead, he died in 50/60s. Maybe your Jack went AWOL...I looked for John Wilson of the Warwickshire regiment but couldnt find any, have you seen these papers?
Sorry for all the questions but Jacks war records could help if I can find his attestation papers....or pension papers

I've seen all of his enlistment/pension records from the Cameron Highlanders and the RHA/RFA, available at Findmypast. And there were the records of his WW1 medals for service with the RWR.

This site has the pictures of the actual medals:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/qo/ozmcfall/medals.html

It was his brother Robert who was incorrectly presumed dead in WW1.

[Paddy]

Christina in the census

Hi Mybea,

I was looking at Christina Wilsons entry in the childrens home in 1891 census. She is listed as a pauper and I believe you were given details that her next of kin was Mary Kelly her grandmother. Maybe they just named the family member who placed Christina in the home as next of kin? One would assume that her mother must have been dead? Did you notice on the previous page there was and Ann Wilson born 1883 also in Everton, as was stated in Christinas entry? Have you ever traced the homes' records?

Re your Jack: A person I knew of many years ago was presumed killed in action in the Great War. However I dont know if he done a runner or what but he wasnt dead, he died in 50/60s. Maybe your Jack went AWOL. Or he could have been already maried? Sometimes the most obvious answer is correct?

It is interesting that a women once known as Mary Jane Kelly seems to have disappeared between 1886 and 1890. She doesn't appear to have died in Liverpool, as you stated.

I looked for John Wilson of the Warwickshire regiment but couldnt find any, have you seen these papers?
Sorry for all the questions but Jacks war records could help if I can find his attestation papers....or pension papers

Pat...................................

[MayBea]

Good evening MayBea,And you are suggesting the mother, Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly, then went to London, reverted to her maiden name and was the murder victim on Nov 9, 1888 Mary Jane Kelly...

...And in September 1887, she had a son with someone, possibly James Maybrick and went, with child in arms, back to Liverpool and registered his birth 12 days after the legal limit of 42 days, reporting the father to be her husband, and left the child there, and returned to London. You understand me correctly, Roy.

Her husband, Robert Wilson, died in January of 1890, less than two and a half (not one and a half as I'm quoted above) years after the birth and about three years after the conception. Since he died of TB, a disease that can cause suffers to linger before death, I think he could have been in the workhouse infirmary for years before he died.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening MayBea,

Jack Wilson's mother registered his (Sept. 1st) birth in Liverpool on the 24th of October, 1887. (She reported his father to be her husband, Robert Wilson, who died of TB less than a year and a half later.) To me, all this does do, definitively, is put his mother in Liverpool on the 24th of October.

And you are suggesting the mother, Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly, then went to London, reverted to her maiden name and was the murder victim on Nov 9, 1888 Mary Jane Kelly.

If I understand you

Roy

[MayBea]

I did wonder if she could be, yes.

Between 1887 and the first quarter of 1889 when "Mary Jane Dixon" witnessed Christina's marriage, there are only two Mary Jane Kelly/Wilson marriages to a Dixon and they are in Yorkshire.

I found only one Mary Kelly/Wilson marriage to a Dixon, and that was a Mary Jane Wilson to a Horace Marshall Dixon in London in 1890.

I'm guessing Mary Jane Dixon is not Christina's mother.

Her brother-in-law, John Dixon, did come from the Preston area but that is quite a bit farther north than St. Helens which is in the Prescot area.

[MayBea]

1891

William Wilson

Age:3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Walton
Ecclesiastical parish:Walton St Mary
Town:Walton
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England
Registration District:West Derby
Sub-registration District: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel:West Derby Union Workhouse (2)

[MayBea]

1901
William J Wilson

Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Male
Birth Place: N
Civil Parish: Wavertree (Catholic Orphanage)
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

[MayBea]

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.

Here he is in 1911. He is actually enlisted under the name John Sullivan, not Wilson. He also claims to be born in Dublin, which is where he was discharged from the Cameron Highlanders around 1906.

1911
John Sullivan

Age in 1911: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Birth Place: Dublin, Ireland
County/Island:Military
Country:England
Military Unit: 58th Battery, R F A
ED, institution, or vessel: India
Piece: 34978

[MayBea]

...If you look at RG12/2834 page 26 in the 1891 census in Helsby Cheshire
There is also a William J Dixon living with them. (Ann Amelia Kellys' husband
was a Dixon wasn't he?)

John Dixon 65
Mary A Dixon 68
Mary H Dixon 36
William J Dixon 5

1881 Census

Helsby, Cheshire

John Dixon 54 Builder b. Liverpool
Mary A. Dixon 57
Samuel Dixon 27
Mary H. Dixon 26
Sarah H. Dixon 21

I found this John and Mary A. Dixon in 1881 so they can't be John and Ann Dixon, in-laws of Ann Amelia. Although they might be related.

[Debra A]

Confirmation

Two days later the Standard was still calling Joseph Barnett 'Jack'

The Standard , Monday, November 12, 1888

[Paddy]

Could the man in 1891 been named John Gleeson Bateman instead of Gateman

Hi Maybea, No he was a Gateman in the Docks.
The Gateman bit was in the profession box...
Pat....

[Paddy]

Maybea

Hi again. Not sure if you already knew of the William John Dixon that I found with Ann Amelia Kellys in laws in 1901 census? It is definitely them and William John Dixon is "Arthur Sullivan" in my opinion. However it still leaves the problem as to his mothers wherabouts ?

Pat............................................... ..

[Debra A]

Is it possible that John McCarthy’s son actually ran on ahead?

It does make me wonder-especially as some accounts describe Bowyer as a young man, too-almost like there was someone younger there but no one quite knew who he was.

[Lechmere]

Initial accounts of dramatic events are often fanciful, but I do find the Standard report interesting.
It must be borne in mind that it is almost certainly the result of interviews with several different informants, some of whom will have been more reliable than others.

The first part that sets the scene is very accurately.
Then it goes into her domestic arrangements, which stray from the orthodoxy and mentions the son and mother who lived with her.
I wonder whether this was actually the son of this mother – rather than being Kelly’s son. In other words a son of a friend that Kelly sometimes ‘used’ as a begging aid. This happens in London today.
‘Jack’ does sound like Joe Barnett.
The account of Kelly’s last night, drinking in the Britannia and in company with Barnett is not altogether unsupported.
Then we have the account of Kelly being alive and well and drinking again in the morning. It is difficult to know what to make of that.
It is quite believable that prior to the arrival of the police, various locals peered through the window to inside no 13, and that account has the ring of truth to it.
However it is also suggested that some entered the room prior to the arrival of the police
The description of the condition of Kelly’s body is also fairly accurate, but I would suggest this probably came from a policeman or doctor who later entered the room. Unless an over-curious mawkish member of the public did go in before and they left and locked the door behind them before the police arrived.
The report suggest that John McCarthy’s son Jack discovered the body and raised the alarm, rather than Thomas ‘Indian Harry’ Bowyer. Bowyer testified that he went down to Commercial Street Police Station with John McCarthy.
Walter Dew described how those on duty at Commercial Street Police Station were informed of the event:
‘a young fellow, his eyes bulging out of his head, came panting into the police station. The poor fellow was so frightened that for a time he was unable to utter a single intelligible word.’
Is it possible that John McCarthy’s son actually ran on ahead?