Jack, Son of Jack

[GUT]

G'Day Miss Marple

I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job.

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.

We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.

But don't you know anybody who has a short relationship [perhaps even a number of them] and then settles down for life? I sure do.

[miss marple]

Joe went into quite a lot of detail about his relationship with Mary, He never said they' went on drunken benders together'. When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her. They moved three times in 1887 but living together. They settled in Miller's Court at the beginning of 1888. They were evicted from their lodgings in Brushfield st at the end of 1887 for not paying the rent, but drinking with it.
Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated. I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job. We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.
Julia Venturney says Joe was very kind to Mary' spoiling her with gifts of meat' and continued to keep an eye on her after he left.
The relationship became strained after Joe lost his job. He could no longer support her and was doing casual labouring and she wanted to go back on the streets, the rows about that led to Jo leaving on Oct 30th.
Because you have a theory, you have to distort the facts to fit it.
At the bottom line there is nothing in the life of Mary Kelly of Miller's Court that fits in with the life of a Liverpool Mary Wilson,
There is nothing to connect them, no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool. If she lied about her past, there would have been elements of truth, its very hard to totally reinvent yourself but you can built lies on what you know, where you were born, where you were brought up.She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales. I am a londoner and if I wanted to lie about my background, I could not say I came from liverpool as I dont know it.
Of course then they is Mary's pre Joe life, Radcliffe Highway etc.
The invisible child is a problem too.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

According to Joe Barnett who is very precise about his relationship with Mary, they did not live together 'intermittently' but together for 1 year and seven months.

I don't think Joe went into much detail about their so-called life together except to say they went on drunken benders and lived at three or four locations.

The newspapers used the word 'spasmodically' when referring to how they lived together. I'm sure they knew what that word meant.

It seems to me that women are quite able to hide their pregnancy. Some aren't even aware of it themselves. Mary Kelly was also described as stout but she doesn't look like it in the pictures.

The new thread on how Mary conducted her transactions seems to bolster the case regarding Mary and Joe's relationship.

[MayBea]

I might be missing the point but many family members look nothing alike and some unrelated people look amazingly similar...

I'm just going by what I got. Thanks for admitting there's a resemblance. He doesn't resemble his brother either but, of course, I think they're half brothers.

A simple DNA test for familial relationship would settle the issue and Jack's side is prepared to provide. I put that out there for James Maybrick relatives.

Of course, if someone had Joseph Flemming's picture, I'd like to compare that too. But we know Maybrick had at least seven children so he was very productive.

[MayBea]

There are many deaths of Mary Wilson's. This one is interesting. The registration of death of Mary WILSON Sept 1890 LIVERPOOL age 36
8B 123. This fits in with her age and residence.

Her death record has been examined and her husband's name is Martin, so she has been eliminated as, I believe, have all the possible candidates within a one year +/- age range.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=14196&page=2

[miss marple]

According to Joe Barnett who is very precise about his relationship with Mary, they did not live together 'intermittently' but together for 1 year and seven months. He left on Oct 30th 1888 but continued to see her until her murder shortly after. He left her because he had lost his job and could no longer afford to look after her, compounded by the fact she invited a prostitute friend to stay with her,
So we are expected to believe that Mary, who had been living with Joe since about April 87, suddenly buggered off to Liverpool to register a baby's birth.
During that time, Joe must has been asleep or had memory loss as this important fact is not mentioned by him, or her Liverpool connections. She managed to hide this birth from everyone she knew in the East End.
Maybe she was teleported.

There are many deaths of Mary Wilson's. This one is interesting. The registration of death of Mary WILSON Sept 1890 LIVERPOOL age 36
8B 123. This fits in with her age and residence.

Miss Marple

[GUT]

G'Day May Bea

I might be missing the point but many family members look nothing alike and some unrelated people look amazingly similar.

Example I had two work mentors who for a period of time I could not tell apart from 10 metres away.

Conversely my Father Brother and I look nothing alike.

[MayBea]

For comparison purposes, ... his brother, Robert Bruce ... next to James.
Where is the similarity if Jack's resemblance [to James] is coincidental?

Below are Jack and James.

[MayBea]

Originally Posted By Disco Stu
How does a confused census return lead to becoming a well-known singer?

Christina was said to have been a well-known singer, and the real Mary Jane Kelly reportedly said she had a relative "on the English stage". If Christina was only 8 in 1888, she'd have to be a child star.

G'Day Stu
Quote:
Her occupation is given as scholar, and while maybe she was a very gifted 10 month old, I'm still not sure she would have been at school.

I was told her brother Jack could play every instrument by the time he was 10. Maybe they meant 10 months!

See, I told you Mary Wilson's kids were special!

[Disco Stu]

Originally Posted by Disco Stu re 1881 census on post #29 (page 3)
The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.

On the Lancashire marriages and Banns Jan 3rd 1899 Ravenhead to Robert Ironside, it states that Christina is 19 years old (father Robert a Baker)

Also on her baptism at Christ Church Everton it states she was born 9th June 1880, (Robert a Baker and Mary Jane named)

I don't think the 1881 census has been filled out correctly. Confusing !

Pat...........................................

The only reason to think the census is in any way inaccurate is because it doesn't match the records you're trying to connect it with. It's far more likely it is correct, and that there's another, similar family. John Kelly is listed as a boarder rather than father-in-law, and, while I know that's fairly common with in-laws, it's even more common with boarders. There were other Robert and Mary Wilsons, of comparable age, and with Robert as a baker, living in the same area.

[Disco Stu]

Hi Stu,

This would actually help my theory since she was allegedly a well-known singer "on the English stage" in Lancashire, presumably as a grown-up.

Well if it helps your theory, great, though I'm not setting out to help or hinder it, just make sure it's as solid as possible. I'm not seeing the connection though? How does a confused census return lead to becoming a well-known singer?

[Paddy]

Christinas marriage

Originally Posted by Disco Stu re 1881 census on post #29 (page 3)
The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.

On the Lancashire marriages and Banns Jan 3rd 1899 Ravenhead to Robert Ironside, it states that Christina is 19 years old (father Robert a Baker)

Also on her baptism at Christ Church Everton it states she was born 9th June 1880, (Robert a Baker and Mary Jane named)

I don't think the 1881 census has been filled out correctly. Confusing !

Pat...........................................

[MayBea]

Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/...

Thanks and hi, Livia.

Thanks for this link (I used to volunteer for the Sally Ann) and thanks also for your previous research regarding Robert Wilson's family.

Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

[MayBea]

...The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.

Hi Stu,

This would actually help my theory since she was allegedly a well-known singer "on the English stage" in Lancashire, presumably as a grown-up.

[GUT]

G'Day Stu

Her occupation is given as scholar, and while maybe she was a very gifted 10 month old, I'm still not sure she would have been at school.