Jack, Son of Jack

[MayBea]

Family Tracing

As we know the Salvation Army was in the business of rescuing prostitutes and their children, but they were also in the business of "family tracing" since 1885.

http://salvationist.ca/departments/social-services/family-tracing/

So it actually does make sense for Mary to take a child back home to Liverpool or anywhere else. She could have taken advantage of this offer and returned with her child to her family and place of birth.

And then she could have gone back by herself to Whitechapel and Barnett, whether or not he was the wiser.

[MayBea]

She must have thought she was something special; the question is, why? Was it because of talent or beauty?

What if it came from being connected? There's no reason to believe she didn't have any 'connections'. We know she bragged about a relative on the stage.

It doesn't even have to be family connections. She could have gotten them on her own.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think Joe got the money from doing casual work, which would have been only a pittance compared to what he had before.

Pehaps he still gave her money, and still called on her because he believed that their break up was only a blip in what he believed was a long term relationship.

In other words it could have been a one sided heart break of a human tragedy that happens every day.

Best wishes.

[MayBea]

I'm sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to be obtuse. I started out trying to make some sort of link between Mary Jane Kelly's possibly bogus claim to have come from Carnarvon, or something that sounds like it, with the Earl.

In the end, any Carnarvon/cotton merchant connection, that provides a family link that goes back to the 1880s, could relate to MJW, Jack Wilson's mother, and a possible track for her to London similar to his.

Jack wound up, in London after the war, marrying into a family with Royal connections. If it was because of already established links, then perhaps his mother also journeyed to London and established herself the same way 35 years earlier.

[Cogidubnus]

eh?

Dave

[MayBea]

The connection can now be made between Jack and the Royals pre-1919 (when Jack married the goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon), through the cotton trade and the Rothschilds.

The Earl was the colonial secretary under Benjamin Disreali who had Rothschild connections through MPs Nathan and Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschilds started as cotton goods merchants.

Through the cotton trade and banking, you have the connection to the expatriot Greek cotton merchants and merchant bankers, Agelasto/Ralli families.

Jack's aunt's sister was a servant in the Augustus S. Agelasto household in Liverpool.

[MayBea]

The only smoke here is coming from Mary Kelly's macho-fueled fantasy of fatal coal-mine explosions, iron foundries, second battalions, and testosterone-filled families with seven males!

But, of course, Joe Barnett truthfully and correctly relayed Mary's story of her East End whereabouts and acquaintances...so he must be telling the truth about everything else!

Chris Scott should have written another Apotheosis article--this one about Joe!

[miss marple]

I admire Maybea's heroic effects to mold and shape her Liverpudlian Mary into the form of Limerick Mary. She pours forth details of this family's genealogy, ignores any facts that interfer with her thesis, dismisses friends, contemporaries and and any evidence that disagrees with her thesis.

But look carefully, its all smoke and mirrors.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

I found out that according to the James Kelly theory, Mary Kelly ran away from Liverpool bearing his child. She allegedly aborted the baby but I thought I'd put up Kelly's Casebook photo next to William Wilson.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=whakTPgHW3IC&pg=PT56&dq=ripper+james+kelly+liverpool+aborted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XphaU-urIojM2QWHjYHAAw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ripper%20james%20kelly%20liverpool%20aborted&f=false

[MayBea]

Four news reports from the U.S. and Canada said that Mary and her porter "husband", i.e. Barnett, lived together at "spasmodic intervals".

The articles all printed the same report.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_star/881109.html

There must have been some time of separation, don't you think? I still wonder about their arrangements between moves. Did they separate or not?

[GUT]

G'Day May Bea

I'd say that he was clearly fixated on her as opposed to keeping an eye on her. Clearly to my mind he was either not over her or extremely jealous. It is interesting that he says he was still giving her money, but out of work. I wonder where he was getting his money from?

[MayBea]

G'Day Miss Marple

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.

Thanks for jumping in on this, GUT.

What do you think about the idea that Barnett was always keeping an eye on Mary?

Doesn't the recently popular "transactions" thread you've posted on throw suspicion on Barnett's account of their arrangements?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...016#post287016

[MayBea]

...The invisible child is a problem too. Miss Marple

Mary Kelly definitely is rumoured to have 'had' a child, whether with her husband 'Davies', or someone else. This child is said to be anywhere from 2 years old (Mrs. Felix) to 10.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-4466.html

But there is a difference between having a child and having a child with you. No one is saying Mary Kelly had her own child with her.

Thanks and hi, Livia. Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

This could explain why Jack was able to visit his Wilson cousins in St. Helens even if Mary Jane Wilson abandoned her husband and had Jack with another man. The Wilsons were Kellys too.

[MayBea]

...When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her...Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated...There is ... no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool... She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales.

Joe would have worked 12 to 14 hour days, I'm guessing, then sleeping while Mary might be out working or drinking. When would they even see each other?

How long would it take for a woman to deliver her fourth child?

How hard is it to drop it off at a nearby relative's or friend's house for a while and then go back a month later and take it to Liverpool to her mother?

I believe in Sherlock Holmes' process of elimination. Mary Jane Kelly had to be someone. The object is to eliminate the candidates. Find her alive or find her dead somewhere else! One caveat: Jack's mother has been around for 8 years at least.

Jack's mother lived all her life in a Welsh neighbourhood. Just check out the residents in and around Penrhyn Street in 1881.

I personally believe the Street Missionary, likely a seasoned Salvation Army officer, who testified that she was not Welsh. He said she was Irish which means, to me, her family bypassed Wales and came straight to England.

[Albert]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia
Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/...
Thanks and hi, Livia.

Thanks for this link (I used to volunteer for the Sally Ann) and thanks also for your previous research regarding Robert Wilson's family.

Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

Hi Livia and Maybea
In case of any confusion William Booth 1829-1912, Founder of the Salvation Army: Charles Booth 1840-1916, Creator of the Poverty Map.
Cheers
Albert