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[caz]

Honestly, such an anti-climax.

My daughter - Izzy Iconcoclast - has a godmother in Scotland and also a friend of Mrs Iconoclast who, coincidentally, is called Margaret (this is all true). All her life, Izzy has called her 'Aunt Margaret'. Maybe, as Gary says, it's a Brit thing.

So imagine Izzy is going to Scotland to be with her godmother during an operation and she happens to say that she'll also be visiting her Aunt Margaret.

In my head for a few days or weeks, because I'm a bloke thinking about blokey things, are the words "Izzy Scotland godmother aunt". I'm not a violent man so let's imagine I'm thinking of going on strike even though we're all in lockdown.

I'm writing in my brilliant DAiry about Izzy's impending trip to Scotland and I write:

Now, all you have to imagine is that James Maybrick had it in his head when he wrote the entry in question "Florrie London godmother aunt". Maybe it was so irrelevant to him that it was only ever "Florrie London aunt".

So it is claimed by Dr Hopper that Florrie was off to visit her godmother, but maybe Maybrick had realised by then (April 1 1889), or maybe he still thought it was her godmother right up to the moment when Florrie told Dr Hopper she'd been to see her godmother (Maybrick [Thinks]: "Could have sworn it was her aunt").

"Florrie London godmother bills aunt murder tea Edwin races horses arsenic"
"Florrie London godmother aunt murder races horses arsenic"
"Florrie London aunt murder Edwin races horses arsenic tea"
"Florrie London bills aunt murder tea Edwin races horses arsenic"

As I say, such an anti-climax. It proves once again that Lord Orsam is an excellent researcher - the dark matter equivalent which perhaps is required in order to have a material Keith Skinner - but it most certainly does not prove the scrapbook was not written by James Maybrick.

Shame really - I was looking forward to a long break from all of this.

Ike
Still Here by the Looks of It

So, Ike, do we know where Bongo is meant to have read that when Florie was off to 'that London' to bed Alfie, she lied about it to hubby [shocking!], saying she was off to see her aunt? So Bongo had suspicious old Sir Jim pretending to go along with it, while believing she was actually off to see "Auntie" Whoremaster? Is that what it's all about - Alfie?

My lovely late ma-in-law always said she was going to see her aunt when she needed a wee. I don't think she had a real aunt permanently stationed in the smallest room:

http://skittishlibrary.co.uk/victori...-week-my-aunt/

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

But really, how on earth can you render a discernible impression of your signature in tiny handwriting inscribed with a makeshift engraving tool into the back of a gold watch? Give ower.

I don't know the answer, Observer, but someone did render a discernible impression of a signature in tiny handwriting inscribed with a makeshift engraving tool into the back of a gold watch. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello all.

A quick question about the watch.
Who first noticed the scratches on the watch and the signature and made the connection to two infamous murder cases?

I only ask because they would be meaningless to most people looking at them unless you were someone who had an interest in one or other of the cases, it could have easily have changed hands without anybody realising any significance unless they were looking for it.

Hi Yabs,

It was a joint effort. Albert Johnson took the watch in to work to show his workmates, around ten months after he had bought it, and around five months before the first diary book was published. The newspapers had already announced the fact that JtR was going to be named in this forthcoming book as James Maybrick, but little else was in the public domain yet, for example what the diary handwriting looked like or which victims the diary would claim and how many. When Albert opened his watch and held it up to the daylight, one of his mates saw the faint scratch marks and they set about trying to decipher them. With the aid of a microscope, and a ripper book to identify the pairs of initials as the five main victims, it was then determined what 'I am Jack' was all about. One of the workmates got this mixed up with the details of the Deeming case before it was finally connected with the recent news reports of JM as a brand new suspect.

The chronically suspicious will tell you the whole episode at Albert's workplace was engineered to give the impression of a genuine discovery made in the presence of innocent witnesses, but if Albert had made the same discovery, all on his own at home, it would have made no difference at all to the suspicions of a 1993 Johnson hoax. If Albert had made that discovery shortly after buying the watch in July 1992, and reported it to anyone, claiming not to know what the marks signified [because the diary's existence had not yet been made public] you can bet your bottom dollar he'd now be in the frame with Bongo as joint Maybrick hoaxers.

Love,

Caz
X

[Iconoclast]

Ps. I think it was Mick Mahoney useless goalie, in a Derby game back in 69

I think, rather disappointingly, we used to sing "Mick Mahoney, super goalie, na-na-na-na-na-na". Not our greatest song ever, granted. It wasn't 1969 though. Mahoney was our super goalie between about 1976 and 1979.

[Abby Normal]

I have a gut feeling that words are going to be eaten... if they have not been already.

Bon appetit!

Love,

Caz
X

you wish. which is pretty much par for the course

[Abby Normal]

watch talk is off topic. take it to the other thread please

[Iconoclast]

And before anyone comes out with ‘Ah, but you’ve got a personal grudge against DB, so your opinion is biased’, read this:

https://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=33527&highlight=Islington

I still haven’t got round to finishing the book, but I will, and if the rest of it lives up the promise of the early chapters (as I suspect it may), I will praise his Lordship to the rafters.

And happy to say that he is a remarkable researcher (and - it sounds like - a good writer also). He has a sense of humour, and he is able to poke a small amount of fun at himself. All this to his credit.

But he's not as Clever as me, and he's wrong about the scrapbook. It's a shame, but - honestly - he can't have everything.

[Iconoclast]

Being a West Ham fan, I was happy that someone lost.

[Iconoclast]

So, Ike, do we know where Bongo is meant to have read that when Florie was off to 'that London' to bed Alfie, she lied about it to hubby [shocking!], saying she was off to see her aunt? So Bongo had suspicious old Sir Jim pretending to go along with it, while believing she was actually off to see "Auntie" Whoremaster? Is that what it's all about - Alfie?

My lovely late ma-in-law always said she was going to see her aunt when she needed a wee. I don't think she had a real aunt permanently stationed in the smallest room:

http://skittishlibrary.co.uk/victori...-week-my-aunt/

Love,

Caz
X

No, Caz, I don't know where Bongo would have known that Florrie off to Landarn to 'sort out her aunt' (thanks for the clip!) was potentially a fib on Florrie's part. If it was Bongo, though, it was a forgery, and if it was a forgery, I honestly wouldn't care because I'd be driving to Beachy Head.

If it was a forgery and the forger had Jim going along with the ruse, it would rather beg the question of why he continued the lie unto himself (i.e., why say 'aunt' in the scrapbook not 'godmother'). If it was a forgery, I assume the forger just plain copied from Ryan or whoever.

The great thing about these debates is that I don't need to have answers to forgery questions, though! Tee hee.

Is it possible, I wonder, that your 'Victorian Slang of the Week' website has ever commented on a possible euphemism lurking within the mole bonnet? Now, that would be very interesting, to say the least!

Cheers,

ike

PS Sorry about Chelski Chelski on Saturday. It wouldn't be an FA Cup Final these days without one or both of Arsenal and Chelsea in it, but - honestly - any chance of sharing it around a bit more? (And - before anyone starts - that was not a euphemism too!).

[Iconoclast]

I don't know the answer, Observer, but someone did render a discernible impression of a signature in tiny handwriting inscribed with a makeshift engraving tool into the back of a gold watch. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Love,

Caz
X

Oh - touché!

And without resorting to the switchblade - nicely done ...

[caz]

I doubt there will be consensus with the farthings. Either they existed and were suppressed from the inquest, or they are a fabricated amalgamation of two pills/combs and shiny rings.

Without the missing official documents there will be no answere. You can't really use them pro or con.

(Such is my current understanding, happy to be corrected. With facts of course not opinion).

There is also the possibility that 'Sir Jim' was sarcastically parroting from various press reports in some of his rotten rhymes, in which case it wouldn't actually matter whether the finer details were erroneous or not. In one's personal diary one wouldn't need to spell out where the reports were accurate and where they got it wrong. The diarist would know - and in keeping with the character portrayed, 'Sir Jim' would be laughing at the fools, running round like headless chickens getting everything arse about face. I reckon the diary author would still be laughing today if he could see us all now.

Love,

Caz
X

[Harry D]

So you are welcome to conclude what you wish, but - if you want the discussion to ultimately conclude - we need to see incontrovertible evidence which proves the case.

Burden of proof lies with those who support the diarist's claims.

Let's see some "incontrovertible" evidence from your side.

Handwriting? Nope.

Ink testing? Inconclusive.

Provenance? Laughable.

[Iconoclast]

Burden of proof lies with those who support the diarist's claims.

Let's see some "incontrovertible" evidence from your side.

Handwriting? Nope.

Ink testing? Inconclusive.

Provenance? Laughable.

One of the great misunderstandings of science.

The burden of proof lies with anyone making any claim, ever.

[caz]

And a lesson to every new author:


Don't rely on a second source, let alone a third one, as the forger in the diary stupidly and blindly did.


The Baron

So you don't agree with RJ Palmer's assessment that there was no forger involved, because the diary is not a forgery, but a hoax?

Bongo didn't do too badly, considering his 'Sir Jim' didn't believe for a second that Flo was off to London to see any persons of the female persuasion, be it the Queen, a Godmother, a cousin, or a non-existent aunt, and therefore - along with every other disenchanted husband on the planet - was only interested in who Flo was shagging, and not who she was using as her alibi. The real Florie couldn't even keep her story straight if she told Alice Yapp she was going to see her mother. Did she tell Dr Hopper - in Jim's presence - that it was her Godmother, because Jim couldn't stand his mother-in-law, the old bat? How did Addison come to believe she had told Jim it was her aunt? "You don't mind if I spend some time in London with my sick aunt, do you M?" "No, of course not, Bunny. It won't even cross my mind that you'll be doing nothing of the sort, because you never mentioned an aunt before and I wasn't born yesterday." "Oh dear, did I say 'aunt'? I meant of course my Godmother." "Of course you did, Bunny. I believe you, thousands wouldn't." [Jim stops listening.] "Well, dear, she has - er - always been like an aunt to me, and she really is under the doctor and what have you." "Yeah, yeah, whatever."

'Dearest,
Phew, that was a close one. I don't think the twit cottoned on that I was lying through my pearly whites. All set for our dirty weekend? Don't forget the lube. In haste - yours ever,
Florie'

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

IF the diary was authentic, (note if), how can we know for sure how much fiction Maybrick was happy to weave into his journal?

If he compiled his adventures a day or so afterwards, could he not absorb some of the more fanciful newspaper reports he no doubt read, into his fantasy rhymes?

Bingo!

I don't see why not, peg&pie, because a hoaxer could have done exactly the same thing, to avoid the banana skin of a fatal error of fact. Just have 'Sir Jim' embroider his personal recollections with some of the bollux he has been reading about himself in the papers - just for jolly - and he's untouchable.

Love,

Caz
X