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The Diary—Old Hoax or New?

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  • I am not so much interested ,Ike,in what Barrett's statement proves, as I am in the supposed confession of Maybrick.You show categorically that Maybrick was the ripper,and I'll accept you are the clever person you say you are,and that arguments in favour of a hoax,are redundant.Till then I'll hold that my navel gazing remarks lead to a belief,that Barrett was a more clever person than you,and that he did,with others,fool a number of people

    Comment


    • Originally posted by harry View Post
      I am not so much interested ,Ike,in what Barrett's statement proves, as I am in the supposed confession of Maybrick.You show categorically that Maybrick was the ripper,and I'll accept you are the clever person you say you are,and that arguments in favour of a hoax,are redundant.Till then I'll hold that my navel gazing remarks lead to a belief,that Barrett was a more clever person than you,and that he did,with others,fool a number of people
      There's no doubt at all - Mike Barrett was unequivocally The Cleverest Person Ever (if defined by how far from one's true baseline one's projected skills are cast).
      Iconoclast
      Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        I’m rapidly approaching 54 and I’ve never once in my entire life heard anyone else use regards in this way Ike.
        hi HS
        also David pointed out the odd use of the word "within" both by barrett and the diary writer.

        but im sure someone will tell us its because barrett picked it up after becoming obsessed with reading the diary (that he didn't hoax).
        Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-06-2019, 02:37 PM.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          but im sure someone will tell us its because barrett picked it up after becoming obsessed with reading the diary (that he didn't hoax).
          Abby,

          Just an idea here. Rather than attempt to ridicule the possibility of it, how about you demonstrate how it could not be so?

          Cheers,

          Ike
          Iconoclast
          Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

            also David pointed out the odd use of the word "within" both by barrett and the diary writer.
            There's the use of "I seen" as well, although that's rather more common.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.

              https://www.orsam.co.uk/sendintheclowns.htm

              And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent
              Regards

              Herlock






              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.

                https://www.orsam.co.uk/sendintheclowns.htm

                And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent
                Hi Herlock,

                I've had a quick looksie and it's looking very bad for some us out there! I have not yet had the opportunity to read it all (we were all watching 'Temptation Island' in the Iconoclast household) but I'm sure I'll get the Kevlar on tomorrow and give it a full read.

                As I haven't read it, I don't know if he's responded to the most important issue of all yet - why his website uses about 23.65% of the visible screen?

                Cheers,

                Ike

                PS I preferred him when he told a few jokes ...
                Last edited by Iconoclast; 08-06-2019, 09:44 PM.
                Iconoclast
                Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Iconoclast View Post

                  Hi Herlock,

                  I've had a quick looksie and it's looking very bad for some us out there! I have not yet had the opportunity to read it all (we were all watching 'Temptation Island' in the Iconoclast household) but I'm sure I'll get the Kevlar on tomorrow and give it a full read.

                  As I haven't read it, I don't know if he's responded to the most important issue of all yet - why his website uses about 23.65% of the visible screen?

                  Cheers,

                  Ike

                  PS I preferred him when he told a few jokes ...
                  too spare you 100% agony! ; )
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Hey! I got mentioned by name in David's article. Well I'll be damned. Number 3 on the list I might add and in front of Caz. Take that Caz! I didn't think I was that important but the buttons are now flying off my inflated chest. My immediate response is to devote my life to reading countless obscure plumbing journals to prove David wrong. On second thought I'll just politely ask David to research the first usage of the expression "go pound sand up your ass."

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • Now I have never claimed a mastery of the English language,nor did I argue that my use of' one off 'invalidated David's use.I never argued it with sam either,but the Ring Master doesn't mention that.In fact he expends a lot of words in proving nothing, except that there is one extra clown, himself. W elcome to the circus david

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                        Hey! I got mentioned by name in David's article. Well I'll be damned. Number 3 on the list I might add and in front of Caz. Take that Caz! I didn't think I was that important but the buttons are now flying off my inflated chest. My immediate response is to devote my life to reading countless obscure plumbing journals to prove David wrong. On second thought I'll just politely ask David to research the first usage of the expression "go pound sand up your ass."

                        c.d.
                        No. 3 - great work, c.d. - Caz will be fizzing to only come in 4th!

                        Don't you love farce?
                        My fault I fear
                        I thought you'd want what I want
                        Sorry, my dear!

                        Ike
                        Iconoclast
                        Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by harry View Post
                          Now I have never claimed a mastery of the English language,nor did I argue that my use of' one off 'invalidated David's use.I never argued it with sam either,but the Ring Master doesn't mention that.In fact he expends a lot of words in proving nothing, except that there is one extra clown, himself. W elcome to the circus david

                          (Best I could with the current crop of smileys)

                          The Ring Master - I love it!



                          Ike
                          Iconoclast
                          Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                            Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.

                            https://www.orsam.co.uk/sendintheclowns.htm

                            And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent
                            So I have now had the pleasure of reviewing Lord Orsam's latest volley, and I'd like to say a few words (as he clearly still reads the Casebook, despite 'resigning' from it recently) on a few subjects.

                            Firstly, I do not have unlimited time on my hands so I still haven't reviewed his various analyses - I will set aside time to do so in the near future and will incorporate any points he makes which I feel are significant into the brilliant Society's Pillar. Clearly, this will inevitably reduce some of the intensity of that brilliance, but that's his life's burden not mine. It is unfortunate that I have to carry it for him, but there you are. He has a big head, but fortunately for him I have a big heart and I am willing to accommodate his limited research into my magnus opium. Not a problem, but he will need to be patient. As his Numero One-o nemesis, I feel he will want to give me the time I need, although I do get dizzy moving my head left and right so often when reading his work so if he could widen his margins, that would be most helpful.

                            Secondly, as my three fans will testify, for many years I have good-naturedly carried the flame for the Maybrick scrapbook. I've taken a lot of flak along the way, and borne the scars heroically. And that was before the good Lord Orsam appeared on the scene with his sack full of Mechanics for Beginners books! Ordinarily, I let the criticism roll off me (the transcendental meditation and the sherry help), but on this occasion, I feel compelled to challenge LO's comments regarding my reference to "off-instance". I haven't once intended my devoted readers to imagine that I actually imagine there ever to have been an expression "off-instance". I insert the hyphen purely to add stress in the right place. I probably should have typed "'off' instance" but that does feel more clumsy than "off-instance". That said, it has clearly confused His Lordship when I have done so so I feel the need to correct the situation. For clarity, then, I do not doubt for a moment that the obvious interpretation of "one off instance" is as we would know it today. Not an issue. Where it becomes an issue is where possible alternatives are wilfully excluded in order to further an argument. It is true (though I hadn't recalled it) that I do not mention this in Society's Pillar, and it is true that there is an element of tongue-in-cheek when I raise it (when is there not?, I hear you all chime), but - tongue-in-cheek aside - it is possible (however implausibly so you may feel that is) that James Maybrick wrote "a … one … 'off' … instance" in his private journal, to himself, not caring too much if it was particularly literate. There is no evidence that he used the term "one off instance" to Florrie. It is perfectly likely that he simply said "I promise it won't happen again" and then when writing about it wrote to the effect of "I told her that it would be a … [a what?] … one … [damn, what do I mean?] … [erm] … 'off' … instance". If the two words 'one' and 'off' were linked with a hyphen, then this possibility would be negated, but the author didn't so we are left with the possibility - however obscure - that it is simply a poorly-constructed sentence which Maybrick did not care to cross out and correct.

                            Thirdly, the fact that 'one-off' was a mechanical term used at least as long ago as the early 20th century does not necessarily preclude the parallel use of the term to mean a single event (in the way we now know it). The two uses of the term may have had a common ancestor and their respective branches may not have had long to separate, but it is perfectly possible that there were two uses of the expression in 1888. So the fact that there are no mentions of 'one-off' in obscure trade journals before 1900 does not necessarily mean that it wasn't being used in its other context in everyday speech or in written documents and letters in 1888 or - for all we know - earlier than that. The obvious question is why has David Orsam not found the expression used in this context in his exhaustive review of 19th century published literature? Well, perhaps his review isn't entirely exhaustive. And perhaps the use of it was in written form and those documents and letters are now long destroyed. I don't know whether this is true or not, but I am not willing to accept that he has provided an incontrovertible fact which refutes the scrapbook until such time as we are more certain that the expression could not have been used in 1888 by a businessman who had spent long periods of time in America. The day may come when we have to accept that 'one off instance' simply could not have been written in 1888 by such a person, and when we reach that point (after we've discussed it for twenty minutes), we will all agree that Ol' Big Head was right all along.

                            Ike
                            Ironiclast
                            Last edited by Iconoclast; 08-07-2019, 10:04 AM.
                            Iconoclast
                            Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                            Comment


                            • Hello Ike,

                              Why does the name David Barrat appear at the end of David Orsam's rant? I'm confused here.

                              c.d.

                              Comment


                              • David Barrat is his name. As he's also a frequent contributor to Ripperologist Magazine, you may have recognized it.

                                JM
                                Last edited by jmenges; 08-07-2019, 11:19 PM.

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