Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Orsam slaughtered Christer’s efforts on the medical stuff and ToD. I almost winced.

[John Wheat]

There is still nothing whatsoever to suggest Cross murdered anyone.

[Geddy2112]

Let’s be clear, I will not engage with anyone who has shown disrespect in any form, whether in the past or present. If you've crossed that line, don’t expect a response.

Sorry? I'm not sure anyone has shown you any disrespect and if you perceive it as that I'm sure that is not the posters issue. You must admit your last few posts on this thread have not been your usual 'style.' You usually stick to one or two sentences and post brief but to the point posts. Similar to what John Wheat posts.

I'm fairly sure no one is wishing to disrespect you at all, I'm sorry I do not see it.

[Geddy2112]

Orsam slaughtered Christer’s efforts on the medical stuff and ToD. I almost winced.

Well he did on the whole book to be honest. Not tricky though when someone believes PCs on blood evidence, something they are not qualified as such to comment on but does not believe them on timings, something they are qualified to comment on...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well he did on the whole book to be honest. Not tricky though when someone believes PCs on blood evidence, something they are not qualified as such to comment on but does not believe them on timings, something they are qualified to comment on...

Im currently reading Carroty Nell by John E. Keene and I noticed from the Mackenzie murder that Andrews found her body at 12.50. He blew his whistle and Sgt Badham arrived moments later and told Andrews to stay with the body while he went for help. Fifteen minutes after that Inspector Reid arrived to find blood still seeping from the throat wound. So, even if she was killed just 5 minutes before Andrews found her body this meant that blood was still seeping from her wound over 20 minutes later.

How can anyone try to claim that Cross was the likeliest killer? The killer could have been back home by the time that Cross arrived.

[Abby Normal]

Let’s cut through any ambiguity. If Nichols was still faintly breathing when Paul examined her, the fatal wound had been inflicted just moments before. And who was standing there at that precise moment? Lechmere.

If the cut occurred moments before Paul examined her, there could still be a small reserve of oxygenated blood in her system. The brain might retain enough oxygen to trigger reflexive, agonized gasps for a very brief period.

The killer would have had no time to flee unseen, he would have had seconds, mere seconds, to cut her throat and vanish without a trace before Paul’s arrival. That kind of vanishing act is impossible, the timing is crystal clear here, Nichols was just attacked, and Lechmere was right there. If Paul’s observation is correct, then Lechmere was not a passerby, he was caught red-handed in the aftermath of his own crime.

This isn’t speculation, it is basic logic. A faint breath means the murder had just happened. And if the murder had just happened, then Lechmere was the only person who could have done it.

Anything less than calling this what it is, a damning implication, is a refusal to face the facts.



The Baron

unless of course, lechmere scared away the killer as he arrived in bucks row. then its still just seconds since she was cut and dying and paul and lech examining her.

[John Wheat]

Let’s be clear, I will not engage with anyone who has shown disrespect in any form, whether in the past or present. If you've crossed that line, don’t expect a response.



The Baron

Does that include everyone who has disrespected Cross by trying to frame him for several murders that he clearly didn't commit?

[The Baron]

unless of course, lechmere scared away the killer as he arrived in bucks row. then its still just seconds since she was cut and dying and paul and lech examining her.

If Nichols’ throat was cut to the bone, the dying process wasn’t a slow, drawn-out affair, it would’ve taken seconds.
A fatal wound like that doesn’t leave room for the killer to stick around, let alone vanish before Lechmere arrived.

If we are to entertain the idea of another assailant slipping away just before Lechmere’s arrival, then the faint breath Paul detected wouldn’t have been possible.

You can’t give a killer time to escape and still have Nichols showing signs of life when Paul arrived. The timeline doesn’t allow for it.

Why bother chasing after some phantom attacker in an almost impossible time frame, when we’ve got Lechmere who just happened to be standing there... alone... in the dark... at the exact moment Nichols might still be gasping for air?!



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

unless of course, lechmere scared away the killer as he arrived in bucks row. then its still just seconds since she was cut and dying and paul and lech examining her.

“While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement.”

He fancied that he felt a slight movement.”

So I typed in ‘fancied that he heard’ because ‘fancied that he felt’ didn’t work, to find a definition, same gist in terms of meaning. Not that I needed to check online though Abby because we all understand the language. It means:

“someone believed something without evidence or certainty.”

How can any weight be placed on this when Paul himself very clearly wasn’t certain?

I’m no doctor but, Cross kills Nichols. There’s bruising on her jaw introducing the possibility that she’d been strangled which is commonly assumed in these murders. There is a 4” and an 8” gash in her through with the second cut down to her vertebra. Then we have the abdominal cuts but because a completely non-medically trained cart driver ‘fancied’ that he ‘might’ have felt movement we have to believe that she was still alive?!

Really?

[Doctored Whatsit]

If Nichols’ throat was cut to the bone, the dying process wasn’t a slow, drawn-out affair, it would’ve taken seconds.
A fatal wound like that doesn’t leave room for the killer to stick around, let alone vanish before Lechmere arrived.

If we are to entertain the idea of another assailant slipping away just before Lechmere’s arrival, then the faint breath Paul detected wouldn’t have been possible.

You can’t give a killer time to escape and still have Nichols showing signs of life when Paul arrived. The timeline doesn’t allow for it.

Why bother chasing after some phantom attacker in an almost impossible time frame, when we’ve got Lechmere who just happened to be standing there... alone... in the dark... at the exact moment Nichols might still be gasping for air?!



The Baron

You are once again being overly selective in your choice of quotes. Yes, Paul initially fancied that Nichols might have still been alive, but that was not his conclusion. It is reported that he told Mizen that "the woman was dead. The woman was so cold that she must have been dead for some time ... If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time."

This is in keeping with a significantly earlier killing - very likely 3. 30 am as claimed by Harriet Lilley.

[The Baron]

You are once again being overly selective in your choice of quotes. Yes, Paul initially fancied that Nichols might have still been alive, but that was not his conclusion. It is reported that he told Mizen that "the woman was dead. The woman was so cold that she must have been dead for some time ... If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time."

This is in keeping with a significantly earlier killing - very likely 3. 30 am as claimed by Harriet Lilley.

He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. Daily News 18/9, Woodford Times 21/9


Felt sure" isn’t exactly "I guess I could be wrong," right? It’s more like saying, “I’m pretty confident this is the best pizza in town,” not, "Well, I think it’s pizza, but maybe it’s just dough with some cheese."


Speaking of selectivity...



The Baron

[GBinOz]

There is a 4” and an 8” gash in her through with the second cut down to her vertebra.

Hi Herlock,

The St James Gazette and The Times, in their Sep 18 coverage of the inquest, recorded Paul as having testified:

"He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not".

If his ear was close enough to Polly's nose and mouth to try to detect breathing, shouldn't he have noticed the two gashes in her throat? Llewellyn said the 8" gash was 2" wide.

Was it was too dark? It is being alleged that there was enough light for Cross to be able to discern that the shape in the darkness was the body of a woman from a distance of 4 metres or more, but Paul couldn't see this horrendous wound from a distance of a few inches? Without judging anyone's role in this murder, but simple weighing the logic of the evidence, I struggle to judge this as credible.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

Hi Herlock,

The St James Gazette and The Times, in their Sep 18 coverage of the inquest, recorded Paul as having testified:

"He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not".

If his ear was close enough to Polly's nose and mouth to try to detect breathing, shouldn't he have noticed the two gashes in her throat? Llewellyn said the 8" gash was 2" wide.

Was it was too dark? It is being alleged that there was enough light for Cross to be able to discern that the shape in the darkness was the body of a woman from a distance of 4 metres or more, but Paul couldn't see this horrendous wound from a distance of a few inches? Without judging anyone's role in this murder, but simple weighing the logic of the evidence, I struggle to judge this as credible.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

While obviously what follows is entirely speculative, it seems to me that given Cross/Lechmere and Paul have to leave the crime scene and get to PC Mizen before PC Neil shows up, with their arrival at PC Mizen and PC Neil's discovery of the body both occurring at 3:45 (or close enough to make no difference), and the distance between the crime scene and PC Mizen would take them around 4 minutes or so, placing their departure around 3:41ish (all times subject to error of course), there's a lot of pointers towards their "examination" being far more cursory than perhaps they are willing to outright say. Even Paul's attempt to pull her dress down goes no further than pulling it down until he is met with some resistance, probably due to the underside of her dress being caught up under her body a bit, so it's not like he put a great deal of effort into it.

It is during that dress fixing that, in some accounts, he says he thinks he detected a slight flutter of movement in her chest. The "hearing her breath" could be a news-rephrasing of "feeling her breath" (I note the above press statement is in the 3rd person, so it's not presented as a quote by Paul, rather a summary by the reporter who wrote it).

Anyway, all things considered, I rather suspect the two of them spent as little as 10-15 seconds actually next to the body, doing nothing more than the dress fixing (which would also be when he may have felt her to be cold). The rest is just them talking about what to do, which would be them standing, and not necessarily right by the body. I could see them discussing what to do, deciding to do very little other than go find the police, and Paul just goes over to pull her dress down a bit, finds it's a bit stuck, and leaves.

Something like that would account for them not noticing her throat wound and the blood. Otherwise, the longer one suggests they are right next to the body, the weirder it becomes that they didn't notice her throat injury (which clearly they didn't).

I don't mean to suggest that either Paul and/or Cross/Lechmere is lying about what they did or talked about. Rather, I think they could have done everything they said in a very short amount of time, and perhaps we're over estimating just how long they were actually there. I'm thinking the amount of time they remained after Cross/Lechmere first stops Paul is probably far shorter than is often presumed.

Mind you, I've been wrong before, will be again, and could be now.

- Jeff

[John Wheat]

Where is all the evidence to suggest Cross killed anyone? Because I don't see any.