Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Geddy2112]

I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a low level 'blood splatter' on the fence next to Polly's body but this seems not to have been picked up by the majority of the reports. Although it might have been on HoL so therefore likely to have been made up

[GBinOz]

Does any kind and clever person know of a website that can give me accurate details for the weather on the night of this murder - and the following days? I'll be blowed if I can find one.

https://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

[chubbs]

Does any kind and clever person know of a website that can give me accurate details for the weather on the night of this murder - and the following days? I'll be blowed if I can find one.

[FrankO]

If Cross had killed Nichols and Paul had seen him do it, what would Paul do next if he saw that Cross was staying put?

Hi Lewis,

My question would be: what would Cross do when he thought Paul was on the brink of being able to see Cross when he first heard him? If he would have walked away, he would have remained out of Paul's visibility range. If he would have stayed, he could only have assumed that Paul saw him from that moment on.

That Paul kept quietly walking in Cross' direction would seem to indicate that Paul didn't see anything or Paul was a policeman.

That would indeed seem to indicate that.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

I think you vastly underestimate the amount of head start Rippermere could have had. Fight or flight are instinctive reactions, likely to occur after only a moment's hesitation. But Rippermere wouldn't be acting on instinct.

* What should I do? Fight or flee?
* Can he see me?
* Observe Paul's distance and where he is looking. Try to spot any reaction - expression, body language, change in pace.
* No, he hasn't seen me yet.
* Can I sneak away unheard before he sees me?
* No, he's too close.
* Can I kill him?
* Observe Paul's size, age, and wariness.
* No, he's on the alert and looks tough enough to put up a fight.
* I can't run or fight, what do I do now?
* Maybe I pretend to be innocent.
* Then I need to hide the evidence.
* Better make sure she's dead.
* Slice Nichols throat twice.
* Try and fail to pull down Nichols dress.
* Pull out a handkerchief.
* Wipe blood off his knife and hands.
* Conceal the knife with enough care not to stab himself.
* Stand up.
* Walk into the middle of the road.
* Turn his back on Paul.

Italics are for those who favor Fisherman's version of Rippermere.

I estimate these actions would take 20+ seconds, 30+ for the Fish version. At an average walking pace that's 30 to 45 yards covered, so if Rippermere just walks off, he has a 70 to 85 yard head start.

I agree, Fiver, although I’d say the actions would take some 15-20 seconds and he would therefore have, at an average walking pace, had a head start of 63-70 yards. But since I think it doesn’t follow that Paul would, immediately, be so alarmed when he heard Cross walk away that he would instantly start a chase, I think it’s safe to say that his head start would, at the very least, have been 70 yards. Which would have put him at the entrance to Wood’s Buildings by that point or halfway between the corner of the board school and the entrance to Court Street. Of course, that is only if he walked away at an average walking pace and never picked up his pace.

All this, of course, requires us to believe that Lechmere/Cross only heard Paul when he’d covered more than half of the stretch between Brady Street and the crime spot, while we know for a fact that Neil was able to hear Thain passing in Brady Street. When we combine all of this with Jeff’s astute point in post #2262, it becomes all the more difficult, to say the least, to believe that he would have stayed put.

[FrankO]

Perhaps I just misunderstand, but if Cross/Lechmere could not have been that far from Nichols because he had to be very close to see her body due to the darkness, how could Paul, 40 yards away, see him flee? Isn't it supposed to be so dark that Cross/Lechmere can't discern a shape to be a body when only 1/2 a street width or so away (pending on the angle)?

It seems to me that like so many things in this theory, "it is, until it has to be otherwise, and which point it isn't".

- Jeff

Excellent point, Jeff. Cross/Lechmere having walked on the same northern footway as Paul did after him, he would have known how far ahead Paul would have been able to, approximately, see and not see ahead along his way down Buck's Row. If he knew that was no more than 10 or even 20 or 30 yards, then he would know he could easily have fled without having to fear that Paul would be able to discribe him well, or even at all.

[chubbs]

I am quite interested in the idea that she was stabbed first, because that was the thought that Dr Llewelyn had. However, if this were so, the knife should presumably have penetrated the dress, and no evidence was given that the dress was cut. I am assuming that the abdominal wounds were therefore administered when she was lying down, with her dress lifted. However, the evidence is not as clear as I would like it to be!

The police didn't confirm the story of blood spots on her route.

1. The dress may well have been lifted, for what Polly thought was going to be a sexual transaction. It did not need to have been cut.

2. The police detectives were utter nincompoops. They didn't even question all of the residents of Bucks Row, for goodness sake! They also allowed the blood in front of the gate to be cleaned away. I have no confidence at all in those detectives and nor did the Coroner. There were reports of blood - were they invented? I don't think so.

[Doctored Whatsit]

...which leads finally (for me) to THE MAJESTIC SCENARIO 7:
JtR initially stabbed Polly Nichols' stomach in the darkness somewhere around Honeys Mews, off Brady St., but she escaped.
She managed to get into the slightly more 'public' space of Brady Street, which had a bit more lighting and possibly (hopefully, for her) a passer-by or two. She zig-zagged her injured way about one hundred yards or so down towards Bucks Row, desperately seeking safety from her attacker, dripping blood as she went (the zig-zag of blood).
JtR kept an eye on her staggering down Brady St, but remained in the shadows at this point in time, for fear of being caught. Too public.
Then Polly made the fatal mistake of staggering into Bucks Row, where JtR joined up with her again - bloody handprints on wall, faint cries of 'Murder, Police!', sounds of a kerfuffle halfway down the row of houses, gradually disappearing into the darkness where, in front of the stables yard gates, she collapsed or was brought down, killed, mutilated and posed. This might account for the lack of blood at the scene - some of it was in a zig-zag pattern along Brady St.?
JtR wiped his blade, put it away and made off in an unknown direction.

Shortly afterwards, Charles Cross walked hurriedly through the darkness of Bucks Row, a bit late for work. As he got about halfway down the street he thought he saw a tarpaulin in the darkness, on the other side of the road...


Of all the scenarii, SCENARIO 7 is my favourite so far.

I am quite interested in the idea that she was stabbed first, because that was the thought that Dr Llewelyn had. However, if this were so, the knife should presumably have penetrated the dress, and no evidence was given that the dress was cut. I am assuming that the abdominal wounds were therefore administered when she was lying down, with her dress lifted. However, the evidence is not as clear as I would like it to be!

The police didn't confirm the story of blood spots on her route.

[chubbs]

This was an interesting report, and the original source of the idea that Nichols was killed elsewhere and moved. It was rejected because no trace of the claimed bloodstains could be found, I believe. Nevertheless, this could possibly have been the start of what Harriet Lilley heard shortly afterwards.

...which leads finally (for me) to THE MAJESTIC SCENARIO 7:
JtR initially stabbed Polly Nichols' stomach in the darkness somewhere around Honeys Mews, off Brady St., but she escaped.
She managed to get into the slightly more 'public' space of Brady Street, which had a bit more lighting and possibly (hopefully, for her) a passer-by or two. She zig-zagged her injured way about one hundred yards or so down towards Bucks Row, desperately seeking safety from her attacker, dripping blood as she went (the zig-zag of blood).
JtR kept an eye on her staggering down Brady St, but remained in the shadows at this point in time, for fear of being caught. Too public.
Then Polly made the fatal mistake of staggering into Bucks Row, where JtR joined up with her again - bloody handprints on wall, faint cries of 'Murder, Police!', sounds of a kerfuffle halfway down the row of houses, gradually disappearing into the darkness where, in front of the stables yard gates, she collapsed or was brought down, killed, mutilated and posed. This might account for the lack of blood at the scene - some of it was in a zig-zag pattern along Brady St.?
JtR wiped his blade, put it away and made off in an unknown direction.

Shortly afterwards, Charles Cross walked hurriedly through the darkness of Bucks Row, a bit late for work. As he got about halfway down the street he thought he saw a tarpaulin in the darkness, on the other side of the road...


Of all the scenarii, SCENARIO 7 is my favourite so far.

[FrankO]

I don't remember if this was discussed before, but there are websites where one can track the location of the moon for any given date/time/location. The one I used is from theskylive.com

It shows roughly a quarter moon at an altitude of 39 degrees, east by southeast at 3.40 a.m.

Walking west on Buck's Row, the moon would have been behind Lechmere and a little to the south, so it makes sense that the northside of the street would have better visibility. The cloud coverage that night was around 50%

We still have a lot of unknowns, but it tends to confirm your observation.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for tracking the location of the moon. However, I don’t know if it tends to confirm my observation.

If one imagines the north side to be (slightly) in more light than the south side, then one might think that the pupils of the eyes are less opened when walking on the north side than when on the south side. And, as a result, one would be less able to see things on the darker south side. And the other way around, of course.

It’s like a house: less light comes out of it than goes in, or: someone outside sees less of the inside of the house than someone inside that same house looking out.

It remains a slippery thing, the lighting conditions…

Cheers,
Frank

[FISHY1118]

I believe there were newspaper reports at the time that suggested a trail of blood did exist in bucks row leading to where Nichols body was found .

[Doctored Whatsit]

Or SCENARIO 5 - JtR and Polly Nichols went into Bucks Row from Brady Street. A little way down, on the left, she lifted her skirts and he stabbed her in the stomach. She cried 'Murder, murder, Police!' and tried to escape by going further into Bucks Row, holding her stomach, hence the lack of blood on the way. One of them left bloody handprints on a wall, as reported by 11-year old Charlotte Colville, who was awoken by this kerfuffle outside her house early that morning, before dawn. Neither she nor her mother dared to go outside. The woman carried on down Bucks Row and her cries became fainter. By the time she reached the Stable Yard gates, where she was killed, either she collapsed or JtR forced her to the ground and there he cut her throat. Was it Charles Cross? Was it William Henry Bury? Was it someone else entirely? We have no idea, do we?

This was an interesting report, and the original source of the idea that Nichols was killed elsewhere and moved. It was rejected because no trace of the claimed bloodstains could be found, I believe. Nevertheless, this could possibly have been the start of what Harriet Lilley heard shortly afterwards.

[FISHY1118]

He's not even a person of interest, he's a witness.

Yes correct, Im merely pointing out to the Lechmere brigade just how less important he is and was in the scheme of things.

[John Wheat]

I somehow think in Lechs case, his more of a "Person of Interest" rather than a suspect. Then again that could be said about them all.

He's not even a person of interest, he's a witness.

[FISHY1118]

I somehow think in Lechs case, his more of a "Person of Interest" rather than a suspect. Then again that could be said about them all.