Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[FrankO]

Lechmere:

"Witness having felt one of the deceased woman's hands and finding it cold, said "I believe she is dead." The other man having put his hand over her heart, said "I think she is breathing." He wanted witness to assist in shifting her, but he would not do so"

Lechmere:

"The hands were cold and limp, and the witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man placed his hand on her heart, saying, "I think she's breathing, but it's very little if she is." He suggested that they should "shift her," meaning in the witness's opinion that they should seat her upright. The witness replied, "I am not going to touch her."

Eastern Argus of September 8:
Feeling the hands cold and limp, I said "I believe she's dead;" her face felt warm. The other man put his hand on her heart, saying, "I think she's breathing, but it is very little if it is." The man suggested that we should move her, but I would not touch her. He then tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down.

Echo of September 3:
He stooped one side of her, and I stooped the other, and took hold of her hand, which was cold. Her face was warm. I said to the man, "I believe the woman is dead." The other man at the same time, put his hand on her breast over her heart and remarked, "I think she is breathing, but very little, if she is." He then said, "Sit her up," I replied, "I'm not going to touch her. You had better go on, and if you see a policeman tell him." When I found her, her clothes were above her knees. There did not seem to be much clothing. The other man pulled her clothes down before he left.

Illustrated Police News of September 8:
Feeling the hands cold and limp witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man put his head on her heart saying, "I think she's breathing, but it is very little if she is." The man suggested that they should "shift her," meaning to set her upright. Witness answered, "I am not going to touch her." The other man tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down.

Star of September 3:
Witness took the woman's hand, and finding it cold said, "I believe she's dead." The other man put his hand on the breast outside the clothes - over her heart - and said, "I think she's breathing, but very little." He suggested they should shift her - set her up against the wall - but witness said, "I'm not going to touch her. Let's go on till we see a policeman and tell him." Before they left the body the other man tried to pull the clothes over the woman's knees, but they did not seem as though they would come down.

Do you see how the Eastern Argus actually states that Paul only tried to pull down the clothes after his suggestion to move Nichols? And how the other at least suggest that he did that after the suggestion to set her upricht? Probably not.

Paul:

"He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint"

Times of September 18:
Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood. They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met. He could not see whether the clothes were torn, and did not feel any other part of her body except the hands and face. They looked to see if there was a constable, but one was not to be seen. While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement.

Do you see that this version actually states that the touching of the breast was when he was in the act of pulling down her clothes? Probably not.

What exactly do you expect Paul to have done?

For starters, as I’ve said before, he could have run to the hospital. I’m sure he knew it was there and it was not even 200 metres away. Wouldn’t he have found medical help there?

He observed, reacted, and suggested action, he felt breath, tried to sit her up but was shut down by Lechmere,...

Was shut down by Lechmere?? Why would he let himself be shut down by anyone, if he was convinced the woman was still living and salvageable? What kind of pushover would he be?

At the inquest, Paul himself didn't even bother to mention the only action he proposed. Bottom line remains that action (or lack thereof) speaks louder than words.

[The Baron]

Running to the hospital would’ve meant abandoning the woman who might still be breathing and leaving her without authority in that critical moment. Does that sound like the best choice? No. In that time, a lot could’ve happened. Who knows if she could’ve slipped further into unconsciousness or died in the minutes it took to run there and back?

On the other hand, going to find a policeman, which is what Paul did, was actually the right call. Why? Because the policeman was a trained authority who could assess the situation more effectively, get proper help, and ensure that immediate medical attention could be summoned.

What exactly would Paul have done at the hospital anyway, start administering medical treatment himself? Show up, burst through the door, and shout, “I think I found a woman who’s possibly breathing! Quick, someone get me a scalpel!” Should he have grabbed the nearest doctor by the collar and yelled, “I know CPR... kind of... Let’s see what happens!” Maybe he could’ve had a dramatic moment where he looked around and declared, “I’m going to save her!” only to realize he’s never even taken a first aid class. Genius

The only responsible thing was to get professionals involved, which is exactly what he did.

In short: it was far smarter, more practical, and far more useful to find a policeman than to abandon the scene for a hospital that would take even longer to act. What good would running off to a hospital have done, when the best chance was to call for help immediately and bring the authorities in on the scene?

Because in a high stress, potentially dangerous situation, Paul should’ve just forced his way into a decision with a stranger who was standing there, alone... in the dark... Sure, that’s how you handle things, throw logic, caution, and basic decency right out the window. Why bother with communication or teamwork when you can just bulldoze your way through, right? So, if he’s convinced she’s still living, he should’ve just forced Lechmere to help, right?

Because that’s totally how emergency situations work, no need for communication or working together, just strongarm your way into a decision like an action hero, right?

What kind of person wouldn’t take charge of someone else’s choice in a stressful situation?!



The Baron

[John Wheat]

This thread gets more and more pointless. Cross didn't murder anyone.

[Geddy2112]

Running to the hospital would’ve meant abandoning the woman who might still be breathing and leaving her without authority in that critical moment. Does that sound like the best choice? No. In that time, a lot could’ve happened. Who knows if she could’ve slipped further into unconsciousness or died in the minutes it took to run there and back?

Plain and simple they both were running late for work at this juncture and that was the most important thing to them, not some dead or drunk nobody lying in the street.

On the other hand, going to find a policeman, which is what Paul did, was actually the right call. Why? Because the policeman was a trained authority who could assess the situation more effectively, get proper help, and ensure that immediate medical attention could be summoned.

NO!... Paul and Cross did...

The only responsible thing was to get professionals involved, which is exactly what he did.

THEY did.

What did the other first finders do in the C5 cases? Can you remind us?

[Herlock Sholmes]

well he actually killed a kid with his cart. sorry herlock couldnt resist.; )

Damn! I’d forgotten about that Abby.

[FrankO]

Who knows if she could’ve slipped further into unconsciousness or died in the minutes it took to run there and back?

And this couldn’t have happened if the went for a policeman?? Furthermore, did he know where they would find a policeman??

On the other hand, going to find a policeman, which is what Paul did, was actually the right call. Why? Because the policeman was a trained authority who could assess the situation more effectively, get proper help, and ensure that immediate medical attention could be summoned.

And where did the police go for proper help? Right, Dr. Llewellyn, although at that point in time, because of going for a PC instead of the hospital they’d unnecessarily lost an extra 3 minutes or so and Nichols was certainly dead. Right call? I don't think so.

What exactly would Paul have done at the hospital anyway, start administering medical treatment himself? Show up, burst through the door, and shout, “I think I found a woman who’s possibly breathing!

If he really believed she was still breathing and salvageable, this is exactly what he would have done. But no, he let Lechmere shut him down, and walked on with the plan to tell the first policeman they’d come across. Not running, mind you. Walking, as in: no urgency.

Quick, someone get me a scalpel!” Should he have grabbed the nearest doctor by the collar and yelled, “I know CPR... kind of... Let’s see what happens!” Maybe he could’ve had a dramatic moment where he looked around and declared, “I’m going to save her!” only to realize he’s never even taken a first aid class.

What?!? He goes to the hospital and then suggests that he's the one who's going to treat her?!? Seriously??...

The only responsible thing was to get professionals involved, which is exactly what he did.

I’m not saying he didn’t do the responsible thing. Based on the evidence, he and Lechmere did exactly what can be expected. They apparently didn’t think there was much urgency, if any, so they walked on and told Mizen what they’d seen, without conveying much urgency, if any.

So, if he’s convinced she’s still living, he should’ve just forced Lechmere to help, right?

If he’s convinced she’s still living and salvageable, then he should have gone for medical help straight away – with or without Lechmere’s help. But I guess he wasn't. At least, that's what the evidence points to.

[The Baron]

Paul didn’t need to dash off to the hospital like some kind of panic driven action hero to prove he thought Nichols was still alive. Just because he didn’t follow this fictional script of what he should have done doesn’t mean he lacked urgency or concern. In fact, it shows that Paul was thinking rationally and prioritizing getting help where it was most accessible.

He was calm enough to know that finding a policeman, a trained professional, would have been far more effective than blindly running off to the hospital and losing valuable minutes.

Ah, yes, of course! Paul should have run to the hospital and what exactly? Walk in and casually announce, “There’s a woman who might still be breathing”? Brilliant. I’m sure that would’ve sent the hospital into a frenzy, right? Maybe they would’ve sent someone running with a stretcher and dropped everything based on that incredibly vague report...

“Quick, everyone, someone out there might be alive!” They’d have probably called in the whole team, doctors, nurses, a janitor, a few confused delivery men, all because Paul’s highly detailed description was so convincing, they would have just magically known exactly what to do with zero details!

And God forbid Paul use his time more wisely by getting actual professionals to the scene, police officers who could, you know, assess the situation, get help on the way, and possibly save Nichols in the time that it took to run to the hospital and back. But nop, let’s just assume the best course of action was to run off and leave the scene even more chaotic. Perfect logic.

Maybe Paul didn’t believe running to the hospital was the best way to handle the situation. Maybe he thought getting a policeman, someone who can immediately assess the scene and call for help, was the smartest move. Just because Paul didn’t do exactly what you imagined doesn’t mean he didn’t think Nichols was still breathing. It means he used logic, not panic, and went for the most practical solution.

So no, this whole argument falls apart because the idea that not running to the hospital means Paul didn’t believe she was breathing is invalid. It’s the exact opposite:

He stayed composed enough to handle the situation in a measured way, and that’s the mark of someone who takes an emergency seriously, not someone who falls apart in the face of stress.



The Baron

[Doctored Whatsit]

Paul didn’t need to dash off to the hospital like some kind of panic driven action hero to prove he thought Nichols was still alive. Just because he didn’t follow this fictional script of what he should have done doesn’t mean he lacked urgency or concern. In fact, it shows that Paul was thinking rationally and prioritizing getting help where it was most accessible.

He was calm enough to know that finding a policeman, a trained professional, would have been far more effective than blindly running off to the hospital and losing valuable minutes.

Ah, yes, of course! Paul should have run to the hospital and what exactly? Walk in and casually announce, “There’s a woman who might still be breathing”? Brilliant. I’m sure that would’ve sent the hospital into a frenzy, right? Maybe they would’ve sent someone running with a stretcher and dropped everything based on that incredibly vague report...

“Quick, everyone, someone out there might be alive!” They’d have probably called in the whole team, doctors, nurses, a janitor, a few confused delivery men, all because Paul’s highly detailed description was so convincing, they would have just magically known exactly what to do with zero details!

And God forbid Paul use his time more wisely by getting actual professionals to the scene, police officers who could, you know, assess the situation, get help on the way, and possibly save Nichols in the time that it took to run to the hospital and back. But nop, let’s just assume the best course of action was to run off and leave the scene even more chaotic. Perfect logic.

Maybe Paul didn’t believe running to the hospital was the best way to handle the situation. Maybe he thought getting a policeman, someone who can immediately assess the scene and call for help, was the smartest move. Just because Paul didn’t do exactly what you imagined doesn’t mean he didn’t think Nichols was still breathing. It means he used logic, not panic, and went for the most practical solution.

So no, this whole argument falls apart because the idea that not running to the hospital means Paul didn’t believe she was breathing is invalid. It’s the exact opposite:

He stayed composed enough to handle the situation in a measured way, and that’s the mark of someone who takes an emergency seriously, not someone who falls apart in the face of stress.



The Baron

OK, let's award Paul a posthumous OBE, and move on to discuss the actual subject matter of this thread.

[FrankO]

Paul didn’t need to dash off to the hospital like some kind of panic driven action hero to prove he thought Nichols was still alive. Just because he didn’t follow this fictional script of what he should have done doesn’t mean he lacked urgency or concern. In fact, it shows that Paul was thinking rationally and prioritizing getting help where it was most accessible.

He was calm enough to know that finding a policeman, a trained professional, would have been far more effective than blindly running off to the hospital and losing valuable minutes.

Ah, yes, of course! Paul should have run to the hospital and what exactly? Walk in and casually announce, “There’s a woman who might still be breathing”? Brilliant. I’m sure that would’ve sent the hospital into a frenzy, right? Maybe they would’ve sent someone running with a stretcher and dropped everything based on that incredibly vague report...

“Quick, everyone, someone out there might be alive!” They’d have probably called in the whole team, doctors, nurses, a janitor, a few confused delivery men, all because Paul’s highly detailed description was so convincing, they would have just magically known exactly what to do with zero details!

And God forbid Paul use his time more wisely by getting actual professionals to the scene, police officers who could, you know, assess the situation, get help on the way, and possibly save Nichols in the time that it took to run to the hospital and back. But nop, let’s just assume the best course of action was to run off and leave the scene even more chaotic. Perfect logic.

Maybe Paul didn’t believe running to the hospital was the best way to handle the situation. Maybe he thought getting a policeman, someone who can immediately assess the scene and call for help, was the smartest move. Just because Paul didn’t do exactly what you imagined doesn’t mean he didn’t think Nichols was still breathing. It means he used logic, not panic, and went for the most practical solution.

So no, this whole argument falls apart because the idea that not running to the hospital means Paul didn’t believe she was breathing is invalid. It’s the exact opposite:

He stayed composed enough to handle the situation in a measured way, and that’s the mark of someone who takes an emergency seriously, not someone who falls apart in the face of stress.

I don’t know who the one with the fictional script is, Baron. Did I ever say that Paul was panic driven? Did I ever say he fell apart in the face of stress? Did I ever say he should/must/would have been blindly running off to the hospital? Did I ever say that Paul should have done things in a chaotic manner or leave things more chaotic than you suppose they already were?

No. So, you’re the one that’s thinking that up.

And why in the name of heaven should a whole hospital or even some part of it be sent into a frenzy when someone comes in & tells them there’s an unresponsive woman lying in a nearby street, who, at best, is only very faintly breathing?

Beats me. I wouldn’t have wanted to be treated there, that’s for sure.

This is all I have to say. I'll leave you to it & wish you good luck trying to convince anybody that Paul’s actions fit the actions of a man who was convinced Nichols was still alive and salvageable.

[John Wheat]

OK, let's award Paul a posthumous OBE, and move on to discuss the actual subject matter of this thread.

There's nothing to discuss though. Cross doesn't need to be got off the hook because he was never on the hook in the first place. I've said this before but there is nothing whatsoever to suggest Cross murdered anyone.

[rjpalmer]

For starters, as I’ve said before, he could have run to the hospital. I’m sure he knew it was there and it was not even 200 metres away. Wouldn’t he have found medical help there?

Hi Frank,

I admire your patience in the face of such a strange argument.

You are spot on. Ivor Edwards and his trundle wheel measured the distance from the murder site to the entrance of London Hospital as 176 meters.



By contrast, leaving it to blind chance, it took Robert Paul over 200 meters to locate PC Mizen, who would then have to have traveled the 200 meters back to the scene, only to then go and seek the same medical help that Paul could have already obtained in less than 1/3rd the time.

And, of course, one man could have gone to the hospital while the other found a constable.

The argument is so strange that I think we might be the victims of a leg-pull.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I admire your patience in the face of such a strange argument.

You are spot on. Ivor Edwards and his trundle wheel measured the distance from the murder site to the entrance of London Hospital as 176 meters.

Thanks, Roger.

By contrast, leaving it to blind chance, it took Robert Paul over 200 meters to locate PC Mizen, who would then have to have traveled the 200 meters back to the scene, only to then go and seek the same medical help that Paul could have already obtained in less than 1/3rd the time.

You might want to make that 'close to 300 meters'. Go figure.

And, of course, one man could have gone to the hospital while the other found a constable.

Good point, Roger. Where there's a conviction, a will & collaboration, there's a way.

The argument is so strange that I think we might be the victims of a leg-pull.

Judging by some of the twisted thoughts he threw at me, I wouldn't be all surprised if we are.

Cheers,
Frank

[rjpalmer]

You might want to make that 'close to 300 meters'. Go figure.

Yes, you're right, Frank. Steve Blomer has it down as 316 yards. It was even worse than I calculated.

Left strictly to Mizen alone, it took Paul 316 yards to find him, 316 yards for Mizen to return to the site and 193 yards to the entrance of London Hospital, a total of...let's see...825 yards...nearly half a mile.

As opposed to Robert Paul traveling 193 yards.

[Fiver]

The reality is, Paul did what he could. He observed, reacted, and suggested action, he felt breath, tried to sit her up but was shut down by Lechmere, Paul then reported it to the police and was furious when they didn’t act.

But what’s Lechmere’s excuse? Guess he was too busy waiting for an ambulance that wasn’t going to show up.

Time to quit pretending like Paul could’ve done something out of a medical textbook in that moment. It was Lechmere who couldn’t be bothered to help.



The Baron

Robert Paul probably would have just kept walking if Charles Cross hadn't stopped him. Yet you claim that Cross couldn't be bothered to help. Your double standard is noted.

Both men observed and reacted, not just Paul. Your double standard is noted.

Paul did suggest propping Nichols up. This would have been useless if she were dead and probably harmful if she were wounded.

Both men reported it to the police, not just Paul. Your double standard is noted. Charles Cross certainly didn't sit around waiting for an ambulance, I have no idea where you got that from.