Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Fiver]

Paul had a full, in-person, close, interaction with Cross. The absolute worst way for Cross to deal with the situation is to wait for the police to eventually find him so that Paul can say "That was the man I saw!"

Robert Paul doesn't know Charles Cross' name. Paul doesn't know where Cross lives. Paul doesn't know where Cross works.

How exactly are the police supposed to find Charles Cross?

[scottnapa]

We are not dealing with a well-lit modern tube station, though.

Paul and Cross walked to work in near pitch-black darkness between 3:30 and 4:00 a.m. Unless they were synchronized to be within a few feet of one another on their morning commutes, there is no reason to think they would have recognized one another. Fellow pedestrians would have been indistinct shadows in the gloom, and (has been already noted) Paul and Cross would have been walking in the same direction.

Let's do the math. Paul was certainly wrong about the time, but whatever the case, he thought it was 3:45 when he entered Buck's Row. It only took him a couple of minutes to reach that spot from Foster Street. Clearly, Paul assumed he could make it to work at 4:00, and as Steve Blomer calculated, from the murder spot to Corbett's court was 1123 yards. At 3 miles an hour, he could have made to work with a minute-and-a-half to spare.

Thus, Paul leaving home at around 3:43 was a reasonable time of departure.

As measured by multiple people, Cross leaving home at around 3:30 was a reasonable time of departure, putting him in Buck's Row at 3:38 or so.

On any given day, provided their clocks were right and their estimated time of departure was accurate, Cross would have been 4 or 5 minutes ahead of Paul, so there's no reason they would have needed to cross paths previously.

The debate over these timings centers, in part, on what may or may not have gone wrong on this particular day that they did cross paths. But even here, the only reason they did is a) Cross stopped at the 'tarpaulin' and waited for the approaching Paul; and b) Paul seems to have been off about 5 minutes in his estimate of time, for reasons unknown, but not particularly rare or suspicious.

Cheers.

Yes we are not talking about a well lit metro. I am talking about skills, emotions and paths. Over the course of months, a person will rarely leave at the exact same time, your comment about "no reason they would have needed to cross paths previously" is stated as if it is a fact when it is conjecture. Same for me.
I do not look at the stated times as fact. No expects the crime so no one gives any extra thought to the time. I assume Cross and Paul would not carry pocket watches that could be easily noticed and stolen. Some seem to present time witness times as if it is a train schedule. We are on Ripper time.
I am surprised you listed Paul's exit from home at 3:43. Did you mean 3:43 as the time Cross and Paul leave to find Mizen at 3:45. I would think Paul leaves home 5 to 7 minutes earlier.

[Lewis C]

That's the exact point I'm making. We don't have any of those things for Cross. In a modern-day investigation, with what we DO have for Cross, he would not be ruled out.

He can't be ruled out, but there are thousands of people that can't be ruled out.

[Pcdunn]

It's not an invention. It's a possible, and plausible, explanation for the sequence of events. It is plausible that Cross never intended to go to the inquest, until Paul publicly told everyone about the mystery man who found the body. We don't know, I accept that - but it doesn't negate that the possibility is there.

I think this is wrong. Cross showed up at the inquest earlier than Paul did. The cops appeared at Paul's door after the article came out, and encouraged Paul to go to the inquest.

[TopHat]

Absolutely, they (Team Lechmere) use the 'in modern day policing' when in reality there is less likelihood of him being considered a suspect as they would have DNA, blood typing, CCTV, mobile phone tracking, fingerprints etc etc... When that is pointed out you get the 'well you know what I mean.' Yeah I know what you mean you want your bloody cake and eat it.

That's the exact point I'm making. We don't have any of those things for Cross. In a modern-day investigation, with what we DO have for Cross, he would not be ruled out.

[TopHat]

Possible? Yes.
Probable? No.

Neither Robert Paul nor PC Mizen knew who Charles Cross was. Charles Cross could have chosen to not go to the police and nobody would have ever known who he was. Contacting the police was the action of an innocent man or of a very stupid murderer.

Paul had a full, in-person, close, interaction with Cross. The absolute worst way for Cross to deal with the situation is to wait for the police to eventually find him so that Paul can say "That was the man I saw!"

[Geddy2112]

I doubt we'll even know.

No let's instead go with he was a bloody liar so hence he is Jack the Ripper...

[rjpalmer]

Thanks, I've got Corbett's Court red spotted on my map, I was just wondering exactly on that map Robert Paul worked. Unless I'm being blind Stow does not mention that in his post... thank you.

Ah--your map does have Wilkes Street and the dot in the right spot to the west. My mistake and I misunderstood.

Covent Garden has always been assumed to be just Covent Garden in the West End.

No one really knows why Paul said he worked there in his initial interview, but said he worked at Corbett's Court at the inquest. I've seen some argue it was a simple journalistic mistake, while others have suggested he left his cart in Corbett's Court at night--it was just a storage area for him--but his actual job was at Covent Garden.

I doubt we'll even know.

[Geddy2112]

Corbet/Corbett's Court was about a modern city block past #29 Hanbury Street, west of Wilkes Street junction. Go to this link and Ed Stow has maps showing the location. See the posts made on 09-27-2013

Thanks, I've got Corbett's Court red spotted on my map, I was just wondering exactly on that map Robert Paul worked. Unless I'm being blind Stow does not mention that in his post... thank you.

[rjpalmer]

Does anyone know 'exactly' where Robert Paul's place of work was on this map? I know Covent Garden market was mentioned but that is not on here.

Corbet/Corbett's Court was about a modern city block past #29 Hanbury Street, west of Wilkes Street junction. Go to this link and Ed Stow has maps showing the location. See the posts made on 09-27-2013

A new critique of the Cross/Lechmere theory from Stewart Evans - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Geddy2112]

Does anyone know 'exactly' where Robert Paul's place of work was on this map? I know Covent Garden market was mentioned but that is not on here.

[Geddy2112]

A modern day investigation would almost certainly rule Cross out as a suspect.

Absolutely, they (Team Lechmere) use the 'in modern day policing' when in reality there is less likelihood of him being considered a suspect as they would have DNA, blood typing, CCTV, mobile phone tracking, fingerprints etc etc... When that is pointed out you get the 'well you know what I mean.' Yeah I know what you mean you want your bloody cake and eat it.

[Geddy2112]

You are just switching one notional suspect with an other.. I’d say they are equally “guilty “

I'm not I'm trying to illustrate a lot of the 'Lechmere Theory' could easily be applied to Robert Paul. Do I think Robert Paul was Jack The Ripper, no. However I think he was for more 'shifty' than Charles Cross... (More on that in maybe a month or so )

[rjpalmer]

As one does when you or I see a familiar face on the metro or at the gas station.

We are not dealing with a well-lit modern tube station, though.

Paul and Cross walked to work in near pitch-black darkness between 3:30 and 4:00 a.m. Unless they were synchronized to be within a few feet of one another on their morning commutes, there is no reason to think they would have recognized one another. Fellow pedestrians would have been indistinct shadows in the gloom, and (has been already noted) Paul and Cross would have been walking in the same direction.

Let's do the math. Paul was certainly wrong about the time, but whatever the case, he thought it was 3:45 when he entered Buck's Row. It only took him a couple of minutes to reach that spot from Foster Street. Clearly, Paul assumed he could make it to work at 4:00, and as Steve Blomer calculated, from the murder spot to Corbett's court was 1123 yards. At 3 miles an hour, he could have made to work with a minute-and-a-half to spare.

Thus, Paul leaving home at around 3:43 was a reasonable time of departure.

As measured by multiple people, Cross leaving home at around 3:30 was a reasonable time of departure, putting him in Buck's Row at 3:38 or so.

On any given day, provided their clocks were right and their estimated time of departure was accurate, Cross would have been 4 or 5 minutes ahead of Paul, so there's no reason they would have needed to cross paths previously.

The debate over these timings centers, in part, on what may or may not have gone wrong on this particular day that they did cross paths. But even here, the only reason they did is a) Cross stopped at the 'tarpaulin' and waited for the approaching Paul; and b) Paul seems to have been off about 5 minutes in his estimate of time, for reasons unknown, but not particularly rare or suspicious.

Cheers.

[scottnapa]

I have often thought Robert Paul claiming it was a dangerous area (not that an individual was dangerous or suspicious) was odd. Since he continued to walk that way to work. Or come to think about it do you (or anyone else) think Robert Paul may have been tooled up and carrying a knife?

Food for thought... I've often thought Robert Paul was more suspicious than Cross.

You are just switching one notional suspect with an other.. I’d say they are equally “guilty “