Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Fiver]

No other theory comes close. No other suspect matches the facts so perfectly. The Lechmere theory is the most logical, the most damning, and the most undeniable explanation for the Ripper murders.

The Baron

No other theory comes close to the Rippermere Theory in the number of proveably false statements presented as facts, or the amount of facts ignored, or the double standards, or the twisting of facts and language, or the selective quoting, or the self-contradictions, or the misrepresentations of science.

Though, amazingly Rippermere isn't the least credible Suspect Theory. At least their suspect, though he has no history of crime, violence or misogyny; was reasonably young and fit and lived in the area. That's notably less ridiculous than an elderly recovering stroke victim living outside of London, with no history of violence or misogyny, and a record of progressive views on women.

[Fiver]

Without missing a beat, he lies to Constable Mizen. Boldly, confidently, a blatant lie, allowing him to walk away without suspicion or delay. It wasn’t luck, it was instinct. Lechmere knew how to manipulate his environment and vanish into the morning, he slipped through their fingers with the ease of a man who knew no one would look at him twice.

The Baron

I see your knowledge of serial killers is based on works of fiction. They are not cunning supergeniuses in real life. But you go beyond even the popular fiction.

If it was a lie, it was a lie that Robert Paul started. Paul spoke to the press before Cross testified. Cross' testimony backed Paul's account of what was said to PC Mizen.

If he wanted to "vanish into the morning" Cross could have
* Simply walked off before Robert Paul reached the body.
* Or let Paul just keep walking when Paul didn't want to get involved.
* Or tell Paul he'd take a different route to improve the chances one of them will find a constable and just walk off.
* Or let Robert Paul do all the talking, so he is the more forgettable man in the background.

Instead, you imagine a man with a bloody knife in his pocket and possible blood on his hands and clothing would ignores this possibilities to talk face-to-face with a police constable carrying a lantern.

Your portrayal of Cross also requires him to be a manipulative genius and a unimaginative idiot at the same time.

[Fiver]

And Bucks Row? That scene alone screams his guilt louder than any courtroom ever could. Nichols, still bleeding, still breathing, and there stands Lechmere, caught in the act by Paul. What does he do? He refuses to help, brushes off Paul’s suggestion to sit her up, and immediately tries to get rid of him with a dismissive 'You better go on' in desperation to be left alone so he could finish what he’d started.

The Baron

Still bleeding - that proves that she was probably killed some time in the last hour.
Still breathing - doubtful. If true, it exonerates Charles Cross, as it means her throat was slit after he left the scene.
Caught in the act - that is provably false.
Refuses to help - that is also provably false.
Refuses to prop Nichols up - not evidence of guilt, or even callousness. Propping her up would be useless if she were dead and harmful if she were hurt. Though it would provide an innocent explanation for any blood in his hands or clothes. If this is a point against anyone, it's a point against Robert Paul.
Tries to get rid of Paul - provably false. Paul only got involved because Cross persuaded him to get involved. They examined the body together. They sought out the police together. They spoke to the police together. They continued to walk together for several blocks after that.

So they only way you can make Charles Cross look guilty is by not just ignoring, but directly contradicting the evidence

[Fiver]

The Lechmere theory towers above every other suspect, leaving the rest in the dust of irrelevance. No other suspect even deserves to be in the conversation. This isn’t speculation, it’s a cold, hard truth.

It it was the cold, hard truth, you would be able to provide evidence against Charles Cross. So far, you have provided none.

A carman, walking the streets of Whitechapel before dawn, blending in seamlessly, invisible to everyone, a master of the shadows by the nature of his work. He knew the East End like the back of his hand, the streets weren’t just his route, they were his territory. No one fit the profile better than Lechmere.

I hate to break it to you, but Charles Cross wasn't the only carman in London. He wasn't even the only carman to find a Ripper victim.

But why let reality get in the way of a theory?

[The Baron]

The Lechmere theory towers above every other suspect, leaving the rest in the dust of irrelevance. No other suspect even deserves to be in the conversation. This isn’t speculation, it’s a cold, hard truth.

Nothing else comes close. Doubt? There is none. Any attempt to conjure it is the pathetic flailing of those too afraid to face reality.

Lechmere wasn’t just a suspect. He’s the suspect. The man was practically born for the role, and the theory doesn’t just fit, it obliterates every other weak, laughable excuse for an idea about Jack the Ripper.

A carman, walking the streets of Whitechapel before dawn, blending in seamlessly, invisible to everyone, a master of the shadows by the nature of his work. He knew the East End like the back of his hand, the streets weren’t just his route, they were his territory. No one fit the profile better than Lechmere.

And Bucks Row? That scene alone screams his guilt louder than any courtroom ever could. Nichols, still bleeding, still breathing, and there stands Lechmere, caught in the act by Paul. What does he do? He refuses to help, brushes off Paul’s suggestion to sit her up, and immediately tries to get rid of him with a dismissive 'You better go on' in desperation to be left alone so he could finish what he’d started.

Without missing a beat, he lies to Constable Mizen. Boldly, confidently, a blatant lie, allowing him to walk away without suspicion or delay. It wasn’t luck, it was instinct. Lechmere knew how to manipulate his environment and vanish into the morning, he slipped through their fingers with the ease of a man who knew no one would look at him twice.

No other theory comes close. No other suspect matches the facts so perfectly. The Lechmere theory is the most logical, the most damning, and the most undeniable explanation for the Ripper murders.

The Lechmere theory doesn’t need overblown speculation, It stands on its own, untouched by the desperate fantasies and intellectual cowardice of lesser theories, It’s clean. It’s logical. It’s unbeatable.

To deny it is to deny reason itself. If you’re still clinging to other suspects, you’ve already lost.



The Baron

[Kunochan]

Skewering The Stupid Scam.

We all know that the alleged Mizen Scam is arrant nonsense which can’t be believed by anyone remotely sensible. The closer you look at it the more obvious this becomes. The suggestion, if anyone isn’t aware, is that Cross could afford to stand around waiting for a stranger to arrive because he had a plan to avoid being detained by a Constable (in possession of a bloodied knife of course) and that plan involved him separating himself off from the stranger and talking to the Constable out of earshot so that he could lie about the woman being alive and that he had been sent by another Constable (in Bucks Row) leaving Mizen to assume that he’d been questioned, searched and sent to find a PC. Meaning that Mizen had no need to detain the two men.

I know…difficult to hear without a chuckle isn’t it?

I'm new here, but I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that Herlock is the most sensible person on the discussion board.

[chubbs]

A man is standing near a crime scene, looking around nervously. There’s a woman lying on the ground. He’s not running. He’s not calling the cops. He’s just… standing. Like a man waiting for his WiFi to reconnect.

Another guy walks by, sees him, and asks, "Uh… what are you doing?"

The first guy dramatically points at the body. "Look! There’s a woman lying on the ground!"

The second guy blinks. "Yeah… I can SEE that. Did you just find her like this?"

The first guy nods. "Yup. Found her just like this. Just me, all alone."

The second guy, now skeptical, steps closer. "And you’re just standing here… why?"

The first guy shrugs. "Because if I leave, I’ll look guilty. So I figured… might as well wait for someone else to find her too!"

The second guy groans. "Oh great. And now that I’m here, what does that make me?"

The first guy smirks. "A co-founder!"

Before the second guy can punch him, a cop walks up. He looks at them, then at the body. "Alright, which one of you idiots did this?"

The first guy IMMEDIATELY points at the second guy. "HIM! He found her too!"

The second guy yells, "WHAT?! YOU WERE ALREADY HERE!"

The cop folds his arms. "So let me get this straight… One of you found the body, dragged another idiot into it, and now you BOTH look guilty?"

The first guy nervously chuckles. "Well, I believe in teamwork, officer."

The cop smirks. "Oh yeah? Well, congratulations, gentlemen. You’ve just co-founded a criminal investigation."

The second guy facepalms. "Awesome. My first business venture, and it’s a homicide case."

The first guy sighs. "Guess we’re partners now, huh?"

The second guy groans. "Yeah, well, I’d rather go bankrupt."

The cop pulls out his notebook. "Alright, founders. Do you prefer your prison sentence in monthly installments or one big lump sum?"



The Baron

Don't give up your day job.

[Fiver]

A man is standing near a crime scene, looking around nervously. There’s a woman lying on the ground. He’s not running. He’s not calling the cops. He’s just… standing. Like a man waiting for his WiFi to reconnect.

Another guy walks by, sees him, and asks, "Uh… what are you doing?"

The first guy dramatically points at the body. "Look! There’s a woman lying on the ground!"

The second guy blinks. "Yeah… I can SEE that. Did you just find her like this?"

The first guy nods. "Yup. Found her just like this. Just me, all alone."

The second guy, now skeptical, steps closer. "And you’re just standing here… why?"

The first guy shrugs. "Because if I leave, I’ll look guilty. So I figured… might as well wait for someone else to find her too!"

The second guy groans. "Oh great. And now that I’m here, what does that make me?"

The first guy smirks. "A co-founder!"

Before the second guy can punch him, a cop walks up. He looks at them, then at the body. "Alright, which one of you idiots did this?"

The first guy IMMEDIATELY points at the second guy. "HIM! He found her too!"

The second guy yells, "WHAT?! YOU WERE ALREADY HERE!"

The cop folds his arms. "So let me get this straight… One of you found the body, dragged another idiot into it, and now you BOTH look guilty?"

The first guy nervously chuckles. "Well, I believe in teamwork, officer."

The cop smirks. "Oh yeah? Well, congratulations, gentlemen. You’ve just co-founded a criminal investigation."

The second guy facepalms. "Awesome. My first business venture, and it’s a homicide case."

The first guy sighs. "Guess we’re partners now, huh?"

The second guy groans. "Yeah, well, I’d rather go bankrupt."

The cop pulls out his notebook. "Alright, founders. Do you prefer your prison sentence in monthly installments or one big lump sum?"



The Baron

I think you're looking for a creative board. None of your characters act or talk like real people, let alone any of the real people who witnessed elements of the Ripper cases.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Skewering The Stupid Scam.

We all know that the alleged Mizen Scam is arrant nonsense which can’t be believed by anyone remotely sensible. The closer you look at it the more obvious this becomes. The suggestion, if anyone isn’t aware, is that Cross could afford to stand around waiting for a stranger to arrive because he had a plan to avoid being detained by a Constable (in possession of a bloodied knife of course) and that plan involved him separating himself off from the stranger and talking to the Constable out of earshot so that he could lie about the woman being alive and that he had been sent by another Constable (in Bucks Row) leaving Mizen to assume that he’d been questioned, searched and sent to find a PC. Meaning that Mizen had no need to detain the two men.

I know…difficult to hear without a chuckle isn’t it?

Cross and Paul approach PC. Mizen. First of all, there are two of them. This doesn’t discount the fact that they might have attacked the woman of course but it makes it less likely. Then of course they have approached Mizen totally of their own volition. Why would two guilty men have done something so stupid when they could easily have walked on unseen and remained completely anonymous? So this would immediately have given Sherlock Mizen little cause for concern. Then of course there was the possibility that Mizen might have taken their names and addresses (the men would have known that Constable’s carried notebooks) So what if Cross had given a real false name for Mizen to take down (as opposed to Cross)? How could he have got to work from then on? Surely the police would have had Constable’s on the street looking for men that came close to his description (from two people) and after finding him they put him in front of Mizen or Cross or both and it’s game over.

This raises a secondary point of course. Surely it can’t be that unlikely that Mizen did indeed take their names and addresses or workplaces?

And if Cross intended to tell Mizen that the woman was still alive why didn’t he begin the deception in Bucks Row? This would have been simplicity itself of course because Paul had ‘fancied’ that he’d felt movement. Cross only needed to have said “I think you might be right old chap.”

The least believable part of this particular piece of fantasy is that, apparently, Cross made the nonsensical and potentially suicidal decision to ‘brazen it out’ (as Christer colourfully imagines it) on the basis that he could safely talk his way past any police officer that they ran into. Clearly this is drivel of the highest order considering that he was with a complete stranger over whom he had zero influence or control. Can anyone, genuinely, hand-on-heart believe that Cross came up with this plan, before deciding to stay put, in the handful of seconds of Paul’s approach. Not a chance. How could someone admit it without embarrassment? From start to finish this whole idea is an act of desperation which betrays a lack of confidence in the silly original suggestion that a serial killer, bloodied knife in hand, wouldn’t have fled into the darkness.

Like most points used to frame this transparently innocent man it crumbles easily. A bit of common sense, a touch of reason, a glance at the evidence and all that’s left is an embarrassing pile and some creative fantasy writing. The only question is….why do they bother? Why do they carry on when it must be obvious to them that they are only making fools of themselves (and sadly, the subject as a whole)?

[John Wheat]

A man is standing near a crime scene, looking around nervously. There’s a woman lying on the ground. He’s not running. He’s not calling the cops. He’s just… standing. Like a man waiting for his WiFi to reconnect.

Another guy walks by, sees him, and asks, "Uh… what are you doing?"

The first guy dramatically points at the body. "Look! There’s a woman lying on the ground!"

The second guy blinks. "Yeah… I can SEE that. Did you just find her like this?"

The first guy nods. "Yup. Found her just like this. Just me, all alone."

The second guy, now skeptical, steps closer. "And you’re just standing here… why?"

The first guy shrugs. "Because if I leave, I’ll look guilty. So I figured… might as well wait for someone else to find her too!"

The second guy groans. "Oh great. And now that I’m here, what does that make me?"

The first guy smirks. "A co-founder!"

Before the second guy can punch him, a cop walks up. He looks at them, then at the body. "Alright, which one of you idiots did this?"

The first guy IMMEDIATELY points at the second guy. "HIM! He found her too!"

The second guy yells, "WHAT?! YOU WERE ALREADY HERE!"

The cop folds his arms. "So let me get this straight… One of you found the body, dragged another idiot into it, and now you BOTH look guilty?"

The first guy nervously chuckles. "Well, I believe in teamwork, officer."

The cop smirks. "Oh yeah? Well, congratulations, gentlemen. You’ve just co-founded a criminal investigation."

The second guy facepalms. "Awesome. My first business venture, and it’s a homicide case."

The first guy sighs. "Guess we’re partners now, huh?"

The second guy groans. "Yeah, well, I’d rather go bankrupt."

The cop pulls out his notebook. "Alright, founders. Do you prefer your prison sentence in monthly installments or one big lump sum?"



The Baron

Another load of rubbish.

[The Baron]

A man is standing near a crime scene, looking around nervously. There’s a woman lying on the ground. He’s not running. He’s not calling the cops. He’s just… standing. Like a man waiting for his WiFi to reconnect.

Another guy walks by, sees him, and asks, "Uh… what are you doing?"

The first guy dramatically points at the body. "Look! There’s a woman lying on the ground!"

The second guy blinks. "Yeah… I can SEE that. Did you just find her like this?"

The first guy nods. "Yup. Found her just like this. Just me, all alone."

The second guy, now skeptical, steps closer. "And you’re just standing here… why?"

The first guy shrugs. "Because if I leave, I’ll look guilty. So I figured… might as well wait for someone else to find her too!"

The second guy groans. "Oh great. And now that I’m here, what does that make me?"

The first guy smirks. "A co-founder!"

Before the second guy can punch him, a cop walks up. He looks at them, then at the body. "Alright, which one of you idiots did this?"

The first guy IMMEDIATELY points at the second guy. "HIM! He found her too!"

The second guy yells, "WHAT?! YOU WERE ALREADY HERE!"

The cop folds his arms. "So let me get this straight… One of you found the body, dragged another idiot into it, and now you BOTH look guilty?"

The first guy nervously chuckles. "Well, I believe in teamwork, officer."

The cop smirks. "Oh yeah? Well, congratulations, gentlemen. You’ve just co-founded a criminal investigation."

The second guy facepalms. "Awesome. My first business venture, and it’s a homicide case."

The first guy sighs. "Guess we’re partners now, huh?"

The second guy groans. "Yeah, well, I’d rather go bankrupt."

The cop pulls out his notebook. "Alright, founders. Do you prefer your prison sentence in monthly installments or one big lump sum?"



The Baron

[Geddy2112]

That's the exact point I'm making. We don't have any of those things for Cross. In a modern-day investigation, with what we DO have for Cross, he would not be ruled out.

But in a modern day investigation WE WOULD have those things, or in the case of Cross the absence of those things so it's a pointless scenario. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The fact of the matter is he was questioned and cleared, Abberline said in his Police report “but after the most exhaustive inquiries no useful result has been attained. Numerous witnesses have been examined.”

Do you honestly think Abberline missed the co-finder of the body in the "numerous witness" category? Remember Charles Cross did not hang. It's that simple.

[drstrange169]

"The absolute worst way for Cross to deal with the situation is to wait for the police to eventually find him so that Paul can say "That was the man I saw!""

Why?

Just like Anderson's Jewish identifier, Cross could simply say, "i don't want to be involved".

End of story.

What is it you think the police could do?

[rjpalmer]

I am surprised you listed Paul's exit from home at 3:43. Did you mean 3:43 as the time Cross and Paul leave to find Mizen at 3:45. I would think Paul leaves home 5 to 7 minutes earlier.

On the day in question? Yes, I think Paul left home 5 or 6 minutes earlier than what he estimated (around 3:38 or so instead of 3:43) and thus he was at the crime scene at "around 3.40"--just as Abberline wrote in his report. I don't think there is a jot of evidence for "missing time." I think that is an invention based on faulty reasoning.

But that's not what I was referring to.

What I'm saying is that, based on the distance from Paul's home to Corbett's Court, and based on the distance from Cross's home to Broad Street, if both men were the sort who would arrive at work a few minutes early (and this is admittedly another unknowable) and both walked at a normal speed, they would be about 5 or 6 minutes apart on any given day, so their mutual claim of not knowing each other is entirely plausible and I don't find it suspicious.

Good night.

[Fiver]

That's the exact point I'm making. We don't have any of those things for Cross. In a modern-day investigation, with what we DO have for Cross, he would not be ruled out.

* There is no physical evidence against Cross.
* There is no eyewitness evidence against Cross.
* There is no evidence of violence or criminal behavior by Cross.
* Cross had no knowledge of anatomy.
* The idea of hiding bloodstained clothing and trophy organs in a house full of small children is laughable.
* The timing of the Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes murders make it wildly unlikely that Cross killed them.

Cross would be quickly ruled out as a suspect in any modern investigation that looked at all the evidence.