How sure was Paul?

[Fiver]

Eh? So now Lechmere's footfalls are easily audible to the killer ... in exactly the way they aren't for R. Paul walking behind him all the way up the Row?

As others have noted, Paul was never asked if he heard or saw Lechmere in front of him. The route Paul took meant he had no real chance of seeing , and little chance of hearing Lechmere before Paul entered Buck's Row.

The killer hearing Lechmere behind him would be comparable to Lechmere hearing Paul behind him and PC Neil hearing PC Thain behind him. It could be that sound carried better in one direction down Buck's row.

[Fiver]

the wound was a gash starting from just under the breast down her abdoman to the stomach, so unless they somehow came back down covering the stomach on their own, tje killer almost certainly pulled her clothes back over the wound.

"There were no injuries about the body till just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. It was a very deep wound, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards. All these had been caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards." - Dr Llewellyn

"Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood." - Robert Paul

Nichol's killer did not cover up her wounds.

[Varqm]

Once more, if Thain got to the murder spot at 3.47, then why did it take him 8-13 minutes to reach Llewellyn who was 2-3 minutes away? Because he checked railway arches? Really? And no, Llewellyn did not get his time wrong. If Thain fetched him at 3.49, why did it take the pair until 4.05-4.10 before thay got to the site?

Maybe I’ m not wrong after all? Or is it just unfair that my timings add up?

Baxter did not changed his mind because of Thain/Lewellyn. He knew the actual discovery of the body was before Neal's discovery at 3:45.
I've already said Thain's was not asked what did he do when he met Neale, did he went straight to Lewellyn. He was not asked.
Lewellyn was 3 min away, which brings the time to 3:50-1 if Thain left at 3:47-8 for arguments sake. Lewellyn said in 1-2 versions he was called at 3:55,a discrepancy of 4-5 min. How do you know Lewellyn was not wrong. Again he was not asked.
You can't just dismiss the 3 PC's.

Clocks could go off.
Coles inquest: That Coles left at 1:45 AM.

Hanswell:
Mr. Lawless. - How often is the clock set right? - Witness. - Once a week. It loses about a quarter of an hour in the week.
A juryman. - If the clock was a quarter of an hour slow it would be 2 o'clock when the woman left. -
Witness. - I am sure it was right, as it was timed by a public house clock the night before, at 11.

[Fisherman]

Baxter did not changed his mind because of Thain/Lewellyn. He knew the actual discovery of the body was before Neal's discovery at 3:45.
I've already said Thain's was not asked what did he do when he met Neale, did he went straight to Lewellyn. He was not asked.
Lewellyn was 3 min away, which brings the time to 3:50-1 if Thain left at 3:47-8 for arguments sake. Lewellyn said in 1-2 versions he was called at 3:55,a discrepancy of 4-5 min. How do you know Lewellyn was not wrong. Again he was not asked.
You can't just dismiss the 3 PC's.

Clocks could go off.
Coles inquest: That Coles left at 1:45 AM.

Hanswell:
Mr. Lawless. - How often is the clock set right? - Witness. - Once a week. It loses about a quarter of an hour in the week.
A juryman. - If the clock was a quarter of an hour slow it would be 2 o'clock when the woman left. -
Witness. - I am sure it was right, as it was timed by a public house clock the night before, at 11.

If you want to believe that Thain did not set off immediately for Llewellyn when Neil told him to run there, then fine.

If you want to think he went on a railway arch expedition en route to Llewellyn, then fine.

If you want to think that Baxter lied ehen he said that the body was found at around 3.45, while he actually knew that it was found five minutes earlier, then fine.

If you want to think that Tomkins lied about when Thain arrived to the knackers shop, then fine.

If you want to believe that it took ten minutes for Thain to reach Llewellyn, then fine.

It´s just that the facts are totally against you. But why bother about such a trifle, when you have things worked out already?

[Fisherman]

the wound was a gash starting from just under the breast down her abdoman to the stomach, so unless they somehow came back down covering the stomach on their own, tje killer almost certainly pulled her clothes back over the wound.

You really should not waste any time on this, Abby. Clothes raised "almost up to the stomach" are NOT raised up to the stomach, and that is all that needs saying. Of course, if we look at all the sources, we find other wordings, like the one in the Morning Advertiser, where Lechmere is quoted as saying " When I found her clothes were up above her knees..."

In no source does it say that any part of the abdomen was exposed, not a millimeter of it, and of course, if the abdomen HAD been exposed, there is no realistic way the carmen could have missed the large gash in it.

[Varqm]

Baxter did not lie. Lechmere did not say the time he saw the body and was not asked. Did the Lechmere\Paul have watches?
But the "most prominent time" was 3:45 am as 3 PC's said it, so it was not far from that but earlier because Paul\Lechmere already discovered it.

If Thain went straight to Lewellyn then he arrived at 3:50-1,the discrepancy is only 4-5 minutes, the snippet I showed the clock could be off, maybe Lewellyn had an
inaccurate clock and not re-winded yet?

The 3 PC's says the facts are against you. At worst it's 3 Pc's vs 1-Lewellyn.Thain offered no time and testimony about his walk to Lewellyn.
I would not be surprised though if at least 1 PC sensed the time while walking round his repetitive beat and knowing at this block I' m 1/4 or half my beat
and tell the time from there.

[caz]

As others have noted, Paul was never asked if he heard or saw Lechmere in front of him. The route Paul took meant he had no real chance of seeing , and little chance of hearing Lechmere before Paul entered Buck's Row.

The killer hearing Lechmere behind him would be comparable to Lechmere hearing Paul behind him and PC Neil hearing PC Thain behind him. It could be that sound carried better in one direction down Buck's row.

I think most people accept that if Lechmere killed Nichols, he could have done a runner before Paul got close enough to appreciate what was going on and raise the alarm. The usual argument is that he decided it was less of a risk to stay put and act his socks off. And because it worked [circular argument alert!] it was a risk worth taking.

But this means that if anyone other than Lechmere killed Nichols, he too could have done a runner if he became aware of Lechmere approaching, who would initially think it was a tarpaulin lying there.

If Lechmere had a couple of seconds to spare to pull the clothes down a bit before Paul could see him doing it, then A.N. Other would also have been able to do this before fleeing, if he was aware that someone - Lechmere - was approaching. It would have allowed the killer vital extra seconds to get a safe distance away, if it wasn't immediately obvious to the next man to come along that a woman had just been murdered and left with her clothing in disarray, revealing the full extent of her wounds.

We know it wasn't at all obvious, because Paul was invited - or persuaded - by Lechmere to examine the killer's recent handiwork, and still had no idea what had happened to the woman.

The few seconds that might have passed, between A.N. Other fleeing and Lechmere first seeing what he thought was a tarpaulin, could surely have made little or no difference to the famous 'blood evidence', which is used to indicate such a precise time of death that only Lechmere is implicated.

Love,

Caz
X

[Mark J D]

I think most people accept that if Lechmere killed Nichols, he could have done a runner before Paul got close enough to appreciate what was going on and raise the alarm. The usual argument is that he decided it was less of a risk to stay put and act his socks off. And because it worked [circular argument alert!] it was a risk worth taking.

But this means that if anyone other than Lechmere killed Nichols, he too could have done a runner if he became aware of Lechmere approaching, who would initially think it was a tarpaulin lying there.

If Lechmere had a couple of seconds to spare to pull the clothes down a bit before Paul could see him doing it, then A.N. Other would also have been able to do this before fleeing, if he was aware that someone - Lechmere - was approaching. It would have allowed the killer vital extra seconds to get a safe distance away, if it wasn't immediately obvious to the next man to come along that a woman had just been murdered and left with her clothing in disarray, revealing the full extent of her wounds.

We know it wasn't at all obvious, because Paul was invited - or persuaded - by Lechmere to examine the killer's recent handiwork, and still had no idea what had happened to the woman.

The few seconds that might have passed, between A.N. Other fleeing and Lechmere first seeing what he thought was a tarpaulin, could surely have made little or no difference to the famous 'blood evidence', which is used to indicate such a precise time of death that only Lechmere is implicated.

Love,

Caz
X

Something strange is going on in people's heads when what we get over and over again, in thread after thread, are attempts to see 'What can we discover about Lechmere?' drowned out by verbally inflated screams of 'Stop thinking about Lechmere! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!'

I really, really don't get it.

M.

[Fisherman]

Baxter did not lie.

If he said that the body was found at 3.45 but actually thought it was found at 3.40, he lied.

Lechmere did not say the time he saw the body and was not asked. Did the Lechmere\Paul have watches?

We cannot know, but I think it is reasonable to suggest that Paul had access to a timekeeping device since he said that it was "exactly" 3.45 as he walked down Bucks Row. It´s either that or he heard a nearby clock chime 3.45 - but if so, why would the policemen NOT hear it and get it right?

But the "most prominent time" was 3:45 am as 3 PC's said it, so it was not far from that but earlier because Paul\Lechmere already discovered it.

"Prominent"? It was the most common mistake made. Have you not yet understood that Baxter dismissed the idea that the body was found at 3.40, thereby ditching the timings of the PC:s? And that Swanson followed suit? The officialy accepted time that Paul arrived at the body was around 3.45, and that fits with Thains business with Llewellyn.

If Thain went straight to Lewellyn then he arrived at 3:50-1,the discrepancy is only 4-5 minutes, the snippet I showed the clock could be off, maybe Lewellyn had an
inaccurate clock and not re-winded yet?

Why would we accept a discrepancy that is twice as long as the time it took for Thain to reach Llewellyn? Why would we accept any discrepancy at all, when we don´t need to? Becasue the PC:s could not possibly have been wrong? Sorry, Bud, but they WERE wrong, and that is in the official record. Why do you thibnk Thain was asked if he fetched his caspe before he fethed Llewellyn? It is easy-peasy (or easy-PC) once we do not think the world revolves around how PC:s cannot be wrong.

The 3 PC's says the facts are against you.

Why would I care a iot if Baxter and Swanson didn´t? Why would I give a rat´s behind when I can show how a much later timing than the one suggested by the PC:s works like - yes! - clockwork? Any ideas?

At worst it's 3 Pc's vs 1-Lewellyn.

No, it´s 3 mistaken PC:s against Llewellyn, Baxter, Thain, Swanson and anybody else who can read and understand official information.

Thain offered no time and testimony about his walk to Lewellyn.

He did not have to, because the sources are quite enough to rule out that he was contacted at 3.45. What Thain says is "... I was signalled by another constable in Buck's-row. I went to him and found him standing by the body of a woman. He said to me, "Run and fetch the doctor," and I went. Dr. Llewellyn returned with me."

That is what he said and what he did, and it took him 2-3 minutes. There is nothing strange about it until we (well you) start adding detours into railway arches, fetching capes we know were fetched after Llewellyn arrived at the site and whatnot.

I would not be surprised though if at least 1 PC sensed the time while walking round his repetitive beat and knowing at this block I' m 1/4 or half my beat
and tell the time from there.

But for the facts, few things seem to genuinely surprise you.

[Fisherman]

The few seconds that might have passed, between A.N. Other fleeing and Lechmere first seeing what he thought was a tarpaulin, could surely have made little or no difference to the famous 'blood evidence', which is used to indicate such a precise time of death that only Lechmere is implicated.

Love,

Caz
X

Added time always has an impact. Sorry. And it could nbot have been a few seconds, because Lechmere said that he would have heard anybody up at the murder site as he turned into Bucks Row. You need to add at the very least a minute. When this was originally pointed out, many people would happily add twenty minutes or so, assuring that Nichols would have no problems bleeding for half an hour or so.

At least that parade has left the streets. The rest will come in due time.

If it was very unexpected for Nichols to bleed for nine minutes, then it was EVEN MORE unexpected for her to bleed for ten or more minutes. Therefore, a phantom killer is more unexpected than Lechmere being the killer.

It is soooooo basic, but soooooo hard to gulp down.

You´ll get there though, trust me.

[Fisherman]

Something strange is going on in people's heads when what we get over and over again, in thread after thread, are attempts to see 'What can we discover about Lechmere?' drowned out by verbally inflated screams of 'Stop thinking about Lechmere! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!'

I really, really don't get it.

M.

Welcome to the weird world of Ripperology, Mark. Glad to have you here! A piece of advice: Never underestimate what Lechfobia can do to otherwise reasonable people.

[Fiver]

Something strange is going on in people's heads when what we get over and over again, in thread after thread, are attempts to see 'What can we discover about Lechmere?' drowned out by verbally inflated screams of 'Stop thinking about Lechmere! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!'

I haven't seen that happen in this or any other thread. I have seen people, when presented with flaws in the case against Lechmere, ignore the points, start slinging insults, or accuse others of bad faith.

It's not unique to people trying to fit Lechmere up as the Ripper. The majority of the people with a favorite suspect seem to react that way to anyone pointing out the flaws in their theory.

[John Wheat]

Something strange is going on in people's heads when what we get over and over again, in thread after thread, are attempts to see 'What can we discover about Lechmere?' drowned out by verbally inflated screams of 'Stop thinking about Lechmere! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!'

I really, really don't get it.

M.

[MrBarnett]

You’ve seen it now, Fiver. :-)

[Varqm]

But for the facts, few things seem to genuinely surprise you.

The facts are there, it's either 3 PC's vs 1 (Lewellyn). No amount of manipulation could change the odds. The PC's were under oath.

If he said that the body was found at 3.45 but actually thought it was found at 3.40, he lied.

Baxter did not say the body was found at 3:45 am , he said "not far from 3:45 am" which included 3:40 sh. So he said it honestly. If Lechmere said the exact time he saw the body Baxter would have, yet Lechmere did not so Baxter has to approximate.
You are manipulating things. You even say Baxter is a liar for your theory even though he did not. I get it