How sure was Paul?

[Fisherman]

Unless we have a copy of the transcripts, we are dependent on newspaper accounts and they disagree.

Was Nichols' body partly warm? Only the Daily News and the Woodford Times claimed that Robert Paul believed that. According to the Daily Telegraph, Evening Standard, the Morning Advertiser, St James Gazette, and the Times; Robert Paul thought Nichols' face and hands were both cold.

For contrast, the Daily News, the East London Observer, Illustrated Police News, Lloyd's Illustrated News and the Daily Telegraph, the Times, and the Morning Advertiser all claimed that Charles Lechmere thought Nichols' hands were cold and her face was warm.

So it seems that Charles Lechmere thought the body was partly warm and Robert Paul did not.

Just as you note, the papers are reporting differently on these things. But we may note that none of them has Paul denying that the body was partly warm; he does not say in any report that the body was all cold. He basically confirms what the doctor said, and so does Lechmere; the cold parts were the hands and wrists.

Was Nichols still breathing?

Three newspapers say Paul was sure there were "faint indications of breathing". In one case he "detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint". In two papers he said he could not hear her breathing. In one he said "While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement." According to six newspapers Charles Lechmere testified that Robert Paul said that he thought Nichols was still breathing.

So it seems fairly certain that Robert Paul believed Polly Nichols was still breathing faintly. What is not certain is whether Paul was correct.

True enough. We canīt be sure, but that uncertaint has somehow transformed over the years to have people saying that Paul only THOUGHT he felt Nichols breathing. He may of course well actually have felt movement if he says he did!

If Paul was correct, Polly Nichols didn't die until after the two carmen left her.

It is a possible implication going on Pauls statement. And it dovetails well with how Neil and Mizen alike both spoke of blood running from the neck for many minutes after the carmen left. Taken together with the two pathologists estimation that the likeliest bleeing time would be around 3-5 minutes, it is not good news for Lechmere, simple as.

Of course the Pinchin Street Torso shows that blood can continue to flow from a body long after the heart stops beating.

There was not any blood "flowing" from that body, though, was there? What there was, was a moist neck surface. To a degree , it is true that blood can be stored in the vessels and run out many hours after death. This was what happened with the Whitehall arm, the one with the ligature around it. When that ligature was removed, blackish blood exited the arm. This ows to how coagulation only sets in when the blood runs over the cut surface, and the blood in the veins of that arm had not yet passed over any cut.
In Nicholsī case, we would probably have some blood left in the vessels that were situated under the level of the cut in the neck, and so it is not unreasonable to suggest tht if the body was tilted, some of it may have run out through the severed neck.
But what Mizen says is that the blood was "still running" as he looked at it - meaning that he is arguably speaking of a remove in time when it woud be logical for the blood to be still running. It would not be logical if the blood was still running perhaps forty minutes after she was cut. "Still running" implicates an unbroken process.

Furthermore, Mizen also says that the blood looked fresh. As I pointed out, the non-oxygenated blood in the Whitehall arm had turned black over time, and did not look fresh. What Mizen saw would have been light red, oxygenated blood. I donīt know how long it takes for the blood to grow darker, but I DO know that it would be very odd if Mizen said that blood coming out of a body that had been dead for some forty minutes "looked fresh".

Finally, we know that the blood in the pool under the neck was more or les immediately cleaned away from the pavement by James Green, and we also know that it was at this stage a large clot of blood. It was not wet blood. But Mizen says that the blood in the pool was partially coagulated. And he would have been there around nine minuttes after Nichols sustained the cuts (if Lechmere delivered them), and since blood starts coagulating around four minutes after it has passed over the cut surface, the exact thing Mizen would see if the blood was "still running" as he took a look at it around nine minutes after Nichols was cut, would be wet blood running into a pool where some of the blood had been coagulating for around five minutes.

That pretty much closes the case in my view. It fits like a glove, all of it.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

He apparently spent some time with the slaughtermen, picking up his cape. But most of the difference would come back to the same clock sync problem.

A question I have been thinking about: Mizen was "knocking people up", virtually acting as a human alarm clock. If he didn't have a pocket watch, how did he do this without knowing an accurate time? If he had a thirty minute beat, how did he manage a "knock up" for the same time with people at the opposite ends of the beat? Were Paul and Lechmere useing beat PCs as their alarm clocks so they knew the time they were supposed to have been "knocked up" rather than an actual time.

Cheers, George

There were public clocks around, shining, I believe, the quarter hours, and that would perhaps have been enough for him to know where he was at, time wise. But the whole clock business leaves a lot of learoom for mistaken timings.

[Doctored Whatsit]

There was not any blood "flowing" from that body, though, was there? What there was, was a moist neck surface. To a degree , it is true that blood can be stored in the vessels and run out many hours after death. This was what happened with the Whitehall arm, the one with the ligature around it. When that ligature was removed, blackish blood exited the arm. This ows to how coagulation only sets in when the blood runs over the cut surface, and the blood in the veins of that arm had not yet passed over any cut.
In Nicholsī case, we would probably have some blood left in the vessels that were situated under the level of the cut in the neck, and so it is not unreasonable to suggest tht if the body was tilted, some of it may have run out through the severed neck.
But what Mizen says is that the blood was "still running" as he looked at it - meaning that he is arguably speaking of a remove in time when it woud be logical for the blood to be still running. It would not be logical if the blood was still running perhaps forty minutes after she was cut. "Still running" implicates an unbroken process.

Furthermore, Mizen also says that the blood looked fresh. As I pointed out, the non-oxygenated blood in the Whitehall arm had turned black over time, and did not look fresh. What Mizen saw would have been light red, oxygenated blood. I donīt know how long it takes for the blood to grow darker, but I DO know that it would be very odd if Mizen said that blood coming out of a body that had been dead for some forty minutes "looked fresh".

Finally, we know that the blood in the pool under the neck was more or les immediately cleaned away from the pavement by James Green, and we also know that it was at this stage a large clot of blood. It was not wet blood. But Mizen says that the blood in the pool was partially coagulated. And he would have been there around nine minuttes after Nichols sustained the cuts (if Lechmere delivered them), and since blood starts coagulating around four minutes after it has passed over the cut surface, the exact thing Mizen would see if the blood was "still running" as he took a look at it around nine minutes after Nichols was cut, would be wet blood running into a pool where some of the blood had been coagulating for around five minutes.

That pretty much closes the case in my view. It fits like a glove, all of it.

I think "pretty much closes the case" is stretching the point a little. When Mizen arrived others would have been touching the body, raising an arm to feel for a pulse, and to check the temperature of the hands and arm. That would cause the blood to ooze, and that could be what Mizen saw. The light was very poor, so Mizen would be unlikely to be able to detect any fairly subtle colour changes in the blood, so by "fresh", he probably was reacting to the fact that the incident had obviously only recently happened. Blood coagulation starting at about 4 minutes only means that bleeding started more than 4 minutes previously, so maybe the killing was 9 minutes before, or maybe 15-20 minutes before, we can't be sure.

The blood evidence is interesting, but not by any means conclusive.

[Fisherman]

I think "pretty much closes the case" is stretching the point a little.

Again, we all must do our own calls. And that is the call I make.

When Mizen arrived others would have been touching the body, raising an arm to feel for a pulse, and to check the temperature of the hands and arm. That would cause the blood to ooze, and that could be what Mizen saw.

What John Neil did was to feel her arm for warmth, nothing more. He visually established that she had had her throat cut open in a large gash, and so he knew that tehre was no use to take her pulse. And hee specifically pointed out that "Without disturbing the body he called a constable who was passing along Brady street." So no, there was no tampering with the body that would casue blood to flow.

The light was very poor, so Mizen would be unlikely to be able to detect any fairly subtle colour changes in the blood, so by "fresh", he probably was reacting to the fact that the incident had obviously only recently happened.

No, that is not what he said. He specifically said that the blood looked fresh, and he had a bullseye lantern to enable him to get a good look.

Blood coagulation starting at about 4 minutes only means that bleeding started more than 4 minutes previously, so maybe the killing was 9 minutes before, or maybe 15-20 minutes before, we can't be sure.

Yes, the blood could have started running a number of minutes before Mizen looked at it - but when Mizen arrived with the ambulance, the body was immediately lifted onto it, and the blood under the neck was then removed in the same remove of time, directly after the ambulance was carried away with Nichols on it. And the blood that had flowed from the neck was then completely coagulated. It was a large clot of blod, as Thain put it. It was effectively not a mixture of liquid blood and coagulated ditto. And that was Mizen described, for the simle reason that he made his description at the time when he first saw Nichols.

John Neil sent Mizen for an ambulance as he first arrived. Jonas Mizen knew quite well that the ambulance was not required to wheel Nichols into trauma surgery. He and Neil were quite, quite aware that she was dead, and that was what the ambulance was for - to take Nichols to the mortuary.
Are you seriously telling me that Mizen, knowing quite well that Nichols had died a number of minutes before he arrived by Neilsīside, and then spending around half an hour to walk to the police station and back with the ambulance, would then say that the blood was "still running" and "looking fresh" at the stage when he at long last returned to Bucks Row? And that the blood in the pool under the neck was "partially coagulated"???

The blood evidence is interesting, but not by any means conclusive.

It is pretty conclusive once we admit that Mizen was speaking about the first time he arrived at the crime scene, I think you must agree about that: the likeliest killer we can find is Charles Lechmere. If we want to swop him for a phantom killer, then weīd better see to it that this man or woman preceded Lechmere by the smallest of margins only. And even if we do, Lechmere is nevertheless the likelier man. Factually speaking, a man proven to have been present at a murder site at the approximate time a victim was killed is ALWAYS a better bid than a figment of imagination.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Sorry Christer, but when PC Neil felt Nichol's arm and found she was still warm from the joints upwards, he was looking under her clothing, and almost certainly therefore moved her arm. I am sure that he felt that moving her arm was different from moving her body.

Are you suggesting that in the darkness with the aid of a lamp, that Mizen specifically meant "in the last 5 minutes" when he said the blood was "fresh"? As opposed to 10 or 15 minutes being old and stale, and easily identifiable as such?

[Fisherman]

Sorry Christer, but when PC Neil felt Nichol's arm and found she was still warm from the joints upwards, he was looking under her clothing, and almost certainly therefore moved her arm. I am sure that he felt that moving her arm was different from moving her body.

He touched her arm, but he took great care to point out that this did not mean that he did not disturb the body. The arm is part of the body, please lets admit that. There was no rolling it about or lifting it or anything such. The arm stretches from the shoulder down to the hand, and it is quite likely that he was able to put his hand under the clothing to touch it without disturbing the body - which he under oath denied having done. If you want to prove the opposite, you are welcome to try and do so, but until that happens, the body was not moved.

Are you suggesting that in the darkness with the aid of a lamp, that Mizen specifically meant "in the last 5 minutes" when he said the blood was "fresh"? As opposed to 10 or 15 minutes being old and stale, and easily identifiable as such?

The line is not drawn between 5 minutes and 10 minutes. If he spoke of blood running from the body after returning to the site with the ambulance, we are speaking of a few minutes (around nine) as opposed to 40 minutes or so.

If you are instead accepting that Mizen was speaking about the FIRST time he saw Nichols, then my suggestion was always that she had been cut for around nine minutes (with Lechmere ass the killer, if it was somebody else, we must add time) as Mizen saw her. The five minutes you speak of do not come into play either way. Mizen cannot have been in place after five minutes only.

[Fisherman]

The line is not drawn between 5 minutes and 10 minutes. If he spoke of blood running from the body after returning to the site with the ambulance, we are speaking of a few minutes (around nine) as opposed to 40 minutes or so.

If you are instead accepting that Mizen was speaking about the FIRST time he saw Nichols, then my suggestion was always that she had been cut for around nine minutes (with Lechmere ass the killer, if it was somebody else, we must add time) as Mizen saw her. The five minutes you speak of do not come into play either way. Mizen cannot have been in place after five minutes only.

Keyboards are funny things. When they decide to make a lttile addition of their own, once can always bank on how it will be something in the line of adding an extra s to "as" ...

[Fisherman]

Okay, so the answer from professor Thiblin is at hand. And we get to know a new term, namely "agonal breathing". Here is what is said on the net about it:

• Agonal breathing is when someone who is not getting enough oxygen is gasping for air. It is usually due to cardiac arrest or stroke. It's not true breathing. It's a natural reflex that happens when your brain is not getting the oxygen it needs to survive.
• Agonal breathing is a sign that a person is near death. It's also a sign that the brain is still alive.

People who have seen agonal breathing describe it as:

• Barely breathing
• Occasionally breathing
• Problem breathing
• Irregular breathing
• Heavy breathing
• Labored breathing
• Sighing
• Noisy breathing
• Gurgling
• Moaning
• Groaning
• Snorting

• Although agonal breathing usually occurs just before the end of one's life, that is not always the case. For the most part, agonal breathing is a sign that someone is fading but is still alive, and in an emergency situation, they may still be able to be saved. Other times, it happens after the person is already gone.
  Since the body doesn't simply expire all at once, the brainstem may still send signals to cause agonal breathing, even after the heart and other organs have permanently shut down. Depending on how long the brain has been starved of oxygen, the person may also be without brain function, and the gasping is simply a reflexive action.
  Even then, a doctor will generally not declare the time until a person has ceased gasping, as there are several medical definitions of death.

This agonal breathing is what professor Thiblin says would be the likeliest thing that Paul may have felt and identified as breathing. It can be noted that one of the shapes it comes in is "barely breathing" which is more or less exactly what Paul spoke of. Professor Thiblin added that it would not matter that the windpipe was severed in Nichols case, agonal breathing is not real breathing but instead a reaction from the brain TRYING to induce breathing.
"A few minutes" is the answer Thiblin gives on the question how long it can go on for, and so it does not rule out an alternative killer preceding Lechmere, although we may want to be careful with suggesting that such an alternative killer could be far removed in time. Taken together with the blood evidence, Iīd say that the likeliest man we have is Charles Lechmere.

[JeffHamm]

Okay, so the answer from professor Thiblin is at hand. And we get to know a new term, namely "agonal breathing". Here is what is said on the net about it:

• Agonal breathing is when someone who is not getting enough oxygen is gasping for air. It is usually due to cardiac arrest or stroke. It's not true breathing. It's a natural reflex that happens when your brain is not getting the oxygen it needs to survive.
• Agonal breathing is a sign that a person is near death. It's also a sign that the brain is still alive.

People who have seen agonal breathing describe it as:

• Barely breathing
• Occasionally breathing
• Problem breathing
• Irregular breathing
• Heavy breathing
• Labored breathing
• Sighing
• Noisy breathing
• Gurgling
• Moaning
• Groaning
• Snorting

• Although agonal breathing usually occurs just before the end of one's life, that is not always the case. For the most part, agonal breathing is a sign that someone is fading but is still alive, and in an emergency situation, they may still be able to be saved. Other times, it happens after the person is already gone.
  Since the body doesn't simply expire all at once, the brainstem may still send signals to cause agonal breathing, even after the heart and other organs have permanently shut down. Depending on how long the brain has been starved of oxygen, the person may also be without brain function, and the gasping is simply a reflexive action.
  Even then, a doctor will generally not declare the time until a person has ceased gasping, as there are several medical definitions of death.

This agonal breathing is what professor Thiblin says would be the likeliest thing that Paul may have felt and identified as breathing. It can be noted that one of the shapes it comes in is "barely breathing" which is more or less exactly what Paul spoke of. Professor Thiblin added that it would not matter that the windpipe was severed in Nichols case, agonal breathing is not real breathing but instead a reaction from the brain TRYING to induce breathing.
"A few minutes" is the answer Thiblin gives on the question how long it can go on for, and so it does not rule out an alternative killer preceding Lechmere, although we may want to be careful with suggesting that such an alternative killer could be far removed in time. Taken together with the blood evidence, Iīd say that the likeliest man we have is Charles Lechmere.

Hi Fisherman,

Before getting to married to this idea, I don't think Prof. Thiblin quite realized that Polly's head was cut down to the spine and nearly decapitated to suggest agonal breathing was likely in this case. If you can, I would suggest clarifying that detail with them first, and for safe measure, you might want to describe her abdominal wounds as well. I'm pretty sure agonal breathing wouldn't occur in this situation, but muscles can twitch after death so if she did move, which itself is not established, then a simple muscle twitch would be the most probable explanation.

Paul's response, that he may have detected breathing but very little if she was, suggests that whatever it was he felt, it is right at that border of "maybe yes maybe no", which, given the nature of her injuries, suggests whatever he felt it was a "false alarm", meaning she wasn't breathing of any sort, but he mistook what he felt for breathing. Might have been nothing more than shifting of underclothing or her breast, or even just his expectations.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Fisherman,

Before getting to married to this idea, I don't think Prof. Thiblin quite realized that Polly's head was cut down to the spine and nearly decapitated to suggest agonal breathing was likely in this case. If you can, I would suggest clarifying that detail with them first, and for safe measure, you might want to describe her abdominal wounds as well. I'm pretty sure agonal breathing wouldn't occur in this situation, but muscles can twitch after death so if she did move, which itself is not established, then a simple muscle twitch would be the most probable explanation.

Paul's response, that he may have detected breathing but very little if she was, suggests that whatever it was he felt, it is right at that border of "maybe yes maybe no", which, given the nature of her injuries, suggests whatever he felt it was a "false alarm", meaning she wasn't breathing of any sort, but he mistook what he felt for breathing. Might have been nothing more than shifting of underclothing or her breast, or even just his expectations.

- Jeff

She could have alreday been long dead, and when and if Paul touched the body there was an exhalation of air from what was left in the lungs giving the apperance that she still might have been breating.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

She could have alreday been long dead, and when and if Paul touched the body there was an exhalation of air from what was left in the lungs giving the apperance that she still might have been breating.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Yes, that is another good possibility.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

Yes, the blood could have started running a number of minutes before Mizen looked at it - but when Mizen arrived with the ambulance, the body was immediately lifted onto it, and the blood under the neck was then removed in the same remove of time, directly after the ambulance was carried away with Nichols on it. And the blood that had flowed from the neck was then completely coagulated. It was a large clot of blod, as Thain put it. It was effectively not a mixture of liquid blood and coagulated ditto. And that was Mizen described, for the simle reason that he made his description at the time when he first saw Nichols.

You say that at the point that Nichol's body was taken away "the blood that had flowed from the neck was then completely coagulated".

Full coagulation of blood pools takes over an hour.

So wouldn't that mean she was killed around 3am?

[Fiver]

Okay, so the answer from professor Thiblin is at hand.

Professor Thiblin? The start is a direct quote from Dr. Dan Brennan at Web MD.

This agonal breathing is what professor Thiblin says would be the likeliest thing that Paul may have felt and identified as breathing. It can be noted that one of the shapes it comes in is "barely breathing" which is more or less exactly what Paul spoke of. Professor Thiblin added that it would not matter that the windpipe was severed in Nichols case, agonal breathing is not real breathing but instead a reaction from the brain TRYING to induce breathing.
"A few minutes" is the answer Thiblin gives on the question how long it can go on for, and so it does not rule out an alternative killer preceding Lechmere, although we may want to be careful with suggesting that such an alternative killer could be far removed in time. Taken together with the blood evidence, Iīd say that the likeliest man we have is Charles Lechmere.

Agonal respiration can last for hours.

[ChrisGeorge]

She could have alreday been long dead, and when and if Paul touched the body there was an exhalation of air from what was left in the lungs giving the apperance that she still might have been breating.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Excellent point, Trevor. Thank you.

Chris

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

Before getting to married to this idea, I don't think Prof. Thiblin quite realized that Polly's head was cut down to the spine and nearly decapitated to suggest agonal breathing was likely in this case.

I, on the other hand, am quite4 certain that he was, Jeff. I pointed it out to him.

If you can, I would suggest clarifying that detail with them first, and for safe measure, you might want to describe her abdominal wounds as well.

He know all there is to know about those too.

I'm pretty sure agonal breathing wouldn't occur in this situation, but muscles can twitch after death so if she did move, which itself is not established, then a simple muscle twitch would be the most probable explanation.

Agonal breathing is quite possible in this situation too, and Thiblin took great care to point out that it does not matter if you have all ot the neck cut down to the spine, since agonal breathing is something that is led on by the brain, trying to restart the system if you will.

Paul's response, that he may have detected breathing but very little if she was, suggests that whatever it was he felt, it is right at that border of "maybe yes maybe no", which, given the nature of her injuries, suggests whatever he felt it was a "false alarm", meaning she wasn't breathing of any sort, but he mistook what he felt for breathing. Might have been nothing more than shifting of underclothing or her breast, or even just his expectations.

- Jeff

As I said, agonal breathing was what Thiblin found the likeliest explanation for any movement felt by putting a hand ion the chest of Nichols, which was exactly what Paul did.