How sure was Paul?

[Mark J D]

The Killer heard Lechmere.like Neal heard Thain in Brady St.. And left at around 3:37-38 just when Lechmere arrived at Bucks row/Brady St.,Lechmere reached the murder spot around 3:40 am, waited for Paul 40 yards way, did their talk and checked the body.

Eh? So now Lechmere's footfalls are easily audible to the killer ... in exactly the way they aren't for R. Paul walking behind him all the way up the Row?

And the phantom killer still took time and trouble to cover up the wounds, even though, with Lechmere's footsteps signalling his approach from 130 yards away [space for Erobitha to supply a micro-correction of the distance...], it was no longer necessary for him to rapidly hide his handiwork preparatory to brassing it out...?

This seems like progress in a negative direction, to me!

Bests,

M.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Eh? So now Lechmere's footfalls are easily audible to the killer ... in exactly the way they aren't for R. Paul walking behind him all the way up the Row?

And the phantom killer still took time and trouble to cover up the wounds, even though, with Lechmere's footsteps signalling his approach from 130 yards away [space for Erobitha to supply a micro-correction of the distance...], it was no longer necessary for him to rapidly hide his handiwork preparatory to brassing it out...?

This seems like progress in a negative direction, to me!

Bests,

M.

Where does Paul say that he never heard Lechmere's footsteps? This keeps getting repeated as if it is a fact, but I can't find any evidence that Paul said anything at all about hearing or not hearing Lechmere in front of him.

[Mark J D]

Where does Paul say that he never heard Lechmere's footsteps? This keeps getting repeated as if it is a fact, but I can't find any evidence that Paul said anything at all about hearing or not hearing Lechmere in front of him.

Paul had more than one go at saying what happened; and we never get anything like 'Standing there, where the woman was, I saw a man I took to be the one I'd heard walking in front of me...' But you're right, of course: there's no actual discussion. And I wouldn't have brought any of this up had our friend not decided that Lechmere was audible to the phantom killer from the far end of Buck's Row.

(I hope people aren't allowing this distracting distraction to distract them from the central issue of the covered wounds.)

M.

[Varqm]

Eh? So now Lechmere's footfalls are easily audible to the killer ... in exactly the way they aren't for R. Paul walking behind him all the way up the Row?

And the phantom killer still took time and trouble to cover up the wounds, even though, with Lechmere's footsteps signalling his approach from 130 yards away [space for Erobitha to supply a micro-correction of the distance...], it was no longer necessary for him to rapidly hide his handiwork preparatory to brassing it out...?

This seems like progress in a negative direction, to me!

Bests,

M.

That's what Neal said. Argue with him. The boots of Thain and his footsteps were louder perhaps. And Paul, in a statement somewhere, said he was wary when he saw Lechmere as there were roughs around the neighborhood, so he probably moved less conspicuously.

[Varqm]

Fisherman,3:40 was the discovery time of Nichols by Lechmere/Paul not 3:45 am, you got it wrong.

"Mizen arrived at 3:54"
Mizen arrived at 3:49 (actual time)

"they both said that a 3-5 minute bleeding time would be what they expected to be the likeliest outcome.
"but his best guess is that the bleeding would stop at around 3.48-3.50."
--but his best guess is that the bleeding would stop at around 3.43-3.45.


So if Mizen arrived at 3:49, 3:45 and 3:43 was the best bleeding time,so at 3:45 Neal/Thain/ were at the murder spot
and Lechmere/Paul was walking to Mizen at 3:43 and talking with at 3:45 am.
So at the best possible time this eliminates Lechmere/Paul and obviously Neal/Thain.

"would allow for her to have started bleeding at the very earliest at 3.39 - 3.44"
--would allow for her to have started bleeding at the very earliest at 3.34-3:49.

The professors actually support a murder time at the very earliest at 3.34-3:49.

You got your time wrong thats why, the body was discovered at 3:40.Use the 3 PC's time.
The killer heard Lechmere like Neal heard Thain in Brady St.. And left at around 3:37-8 just when Lechmere arrived
at Bucks row/Brady St.The school board is near and he would be out of sight. Lechmere reached the murder spot around 3:40 am,
waited for Paul 40 yards way, did their talk and checked the body.Then they walk to Mizen engaging him at 3:45.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman,3:40 was the discovery time of Nichols by Lechmere/Paul not 3:45 am, you got it wrong.

"Mizen arrived at 3:54"
Mizen arrived at 3:49 (actual time)

"they both said that a 3-5 minute bleeding time would be what they expected to be the likeliest outcome.
"but his best guess is that the bleeding would stop at around 3.48-3.50."
--but his best guess is that the bleeding would stop at around 3.43-3.45.


So if Mizen arrived at 3:49, 3:45 and 3:43 was the best bleeding time,so at 3:45 Neal/Thain/ were at the murder spot
and Lechmere/Paul was walking to Mizen at 3:43 and talking with at 3:45 am.
So at the best possible time this eliminates Lechmere/Paul and obviously Neal/Thain.

"would allow for her to have started bleeding at the very earliest at 3.39 - 3.44"
--would allow for her to have started bleeding at the very earliest at 3.34-3:49.

The professors actually support a murder time at the very earliest at 3.34-3:49.

You got your time wrong thats why, the body was discovered at 3:40.Use the 3 PC's time.
The killer heard Lechmere like Neal heard Thain in Brady St.. And left at around 3:37-8 just when Lechmere arrived
at Bucks row/Brady St.The school board is near and he would be out of sight. Lechmere reached the murder spot around 3:40 am,
waited for Paul 40 yards way, did their talk and checked the body.Then they walk to Mizen engaging him at 3:45.

Letīs go through this and see what actually applies, Varqm!

You say that I got it wrong, the body was discovered at 3.40, not 3.45. You claim that the three PC:s guarantee this.

We should begin by admitting, both of us, that we do not know the actual time. Therefore, just as I cannot say that you are wrong, you cannot say that I am. All we have to go by is the official contemporary view and logical thinking. So letīs check where that takes us.

First, the official contemporary view:
There were two police reports mentioning the carman/carmen finding the body. The first dates back to the 19th of September 1888 and the second to a month later, the 19th of October. In the first report, the time when Lechmere found the body is given as 3.40. The second report instead states 3.45. This means that the last we hear from the police (in the shape of Donald Swanson) is that 3.45 is the correct time.

So why did the police change their minds? Well, we may speculate that the reason for the 3.40 timing was that they initially did the math the way you do: The believed in the 3.45 timing given by three PC:s. If they were engaged at 3.45, then the body would reasonably have been found around five minutes before, meaning at circa 3.40.

So why did the police not stick with that timing? A probable answer is given in between the two reports, on the 22nd of September, when coroner Baxter summed up the case at the inquest. He then stated that "The time at which the body was found cannot have been far from 3.45 a.m., as it is fixed by so many independent data".

This tells us that the matter was looked into in order to try and establish a chronological timeline. It was not guesswork only, the matter was investigated.

Question: Was coroner Baxter aware of how three PC:s all said that they were engaged in the affair at 3.45?

Yes, he was.

So why did he not say that the body was found at 3.40, the way you do?

Because there were MANY INDEPENDENT data that gainsaid that timing. They outweighed the PC:s.

So what may that data have been? I would suggest that they were for example:

- Pauls exact timing as he went down Bucks Row, as per Lloyds Weekly.

- If we accept that Llewellyn was contacted at 3.55 by Thain, then he would have set out for the doctor at around 3.52 - 3.53 from the murder site, because it took 2-3 minutes from there to the practice.

-If Thain was sent for LLewellyn at 3.52 - 3.53, then how could Neil have found the body at around 3.45? Did it take him 7-8 minutes to get Thain en route for Llewellyn?

These are matters that offer themselves up readily when looking at the conundrum of why Baxter said that the body was found at 3.45. If it WAS, then Neil would have been in place at around 3.51, signalled Thain down and told him to run for Lewellyn. And we would be at around 3.52 - 3.53 as Thain left.

I do not know if these things were what goverened Baxters decision and subsequently swayed Swanson, but it makes sense to me that it belonged to the picture. There may have been more, of course, since Baxter does not describe the data in detail.

Anyhow, this is why I say that you should not say that I am wrong. You may THINK that I may be, but thatīs as far as it goes. The official contemporary view says I am right - but they too could have been wrong, of course. Moreover, it is not as if 3.40 or 3.45 are the only possible choices. There is also 3.39, 3.41, 3.42, 3.43, 3.44, 3.46, 3.47 and so on to consider as possibilities. But the contemporary view was 3.45.

Most important of all, though: To the issue at hand, it matters not a iot if it was 3.40 or 3.45, becasue it would have taken Mizen around nine minutes after the throat was cut (if Lechmere cut it as he heard Paul turning into Bucks Row), before old Jonas was in place outside Browns Stable Yard. And as he arrived there and took a look, presumably aided by his lantern, he noted that the blood was STILL RUNNING from the neck would, that it LOOKED FRESH and that the pool underneath the neck was SOMEWHAT COAGULATED. And it still applies that the forensic physicians said that the bleeding would likely have stopped after 3-5 minutes, although it may as an extreme possibility have gone on for perhaps 10-15 minutes.

And so, regardless if the body was found at 3.40 or 3.45, Lechmere is still caught in the crosshairs of the physicians timings.

[Varqm]

Letīs go through this and see what actually applies, Varqm!

You say that I got it wrong, the body was discovered at 3.40, not 3.45. You claim that the three PC:s guarantee this.

We should begin by admitting, both of us, that we do not know the actual time. Therefore, just as I cannot say that you are wrong, you cannot say that I am. All we have to go by is the official contemporary view and logical thinking. So letīs check where that takes us.

First, the official contemporary view:
There were two police reports mentioning the carman/carmen finding the body. The first dates back to the 19th of September 1888 and the second to a month later, the 19th of October. In the first report, the time when Lechmere found the body is given as 3.40. The second report instead states 3.45. This means that the last we hear from the police (in the shape of Donald Swanson) is that 3.45 is the correct time.

So why did the police change their minds? Well, we may speculate that the reason for the 3.40 timing was that they initially did the math the way you do: The believed in the 3.45 timing given by three PC:s. If they were engaged at 3.45, then the body would reasonably have been found around five minutes before, meaning at circa 3.40.

So why did the police not stick with that timing? A probable answer is given in between the two reports, on the 22nd of September, when coroner Baxter summed up the case at the inquest. He then stated that "The time at which the body was found cannot have been far from 3.45 a.m., as it is fixed by so many independent data".

This tells us that the matter was looked into in order to try and establish a chronological timeline. It was not guesswork only, the matter was investigated.

Question: Was coroner Baxter aware of how three PC:s all said that they were engaged in the affair at 3.45?

Yes, he was.

So why did he not say that the body was found at 3.40, the way you do?

Because there were MANY INDEPENDENT data that gainsaid that timing. They outweighed the PC:s.

So what may that data have been? I would suggest that they were for example:

- Pauls exact timing as he went down Bucks Row, as per Lloyds Weekly.

- If we accept that Llewellyn was contacted at 3.55 by Thain, then he would have set out for the doctor at around 3.52 - 3.53 from the murder site, because it took 2-3 minutes from there to the practice.

-If Thain was sent for LLewellyn at 3.52 - 3.53, then how could Neil have found the body at around 3.45? Did it take him 7-8 minutes to get Thain en route for Llewellyn?

These are matters that offer themselves up readily when looking at the conundrum of why Baxter said that the body was found at 3.45. If it WAS, then Neil would have been in place at around 3.51, signalled Thain down and told him to run for Lewellyn. And we would be at around 3.52 - 3.53 as Thain left.

I do not know if these things were what goverened Baxters decision and subsequently swayed Swanson, but it makes sense to me that it belonged to the picture. There may have been more, of course, since Baxter does not describe the data in detail.

Anyhow, this is why I say that you should not say that I am wrong. You may THINK that I may be, but thatīs as far as it goes. The official contemporary view says I am right - but they too could have been wrong, of course. Moreover, it is not as if 3.40 or 3.45 are the only possible choices. There is also 3.39, 3.41, 3.42, 3.43, 3.44, 3.46, 3.47 and so on to consider as possibilities. But the contemporary view was 3.45.

Most important of all, though: To the issue at hand, it matters not a iot if it was 3.40 or 3.45, becasue it would have taken Mizen around nine minutes after the throat was cut (if Lechmere cut it as he heard Paul turning into Bucks Row), before old Jonas was in place outside Browns Stable Yard. And as he arrived there and took a look, presumably aided by his lantern, he noted that the blood was STILL RUNNING from the neck would, that it LOOKED FRESH and that the pool underneath the neck was SOMEWHAT COAGULATED. And it still applies that the forensic physicians said that the bleeding would likely have stopped after 3-5 minutes, although it may as an extreme possibility have gone on for perhaps 10-15 minutes.

And so, regardless if the body was found at 3.40 or 3.45, Lechmere is still caught in the crosshairs of the physicians timings.

Before the policemen testified in the inquest they had submitted a written statement. It is then given to the coroner. They figured out their time by the time it is written and they probably conferred.

-Coroner: The time at which the body was found cannot have been far from 3.45 a.m., as it is fixed by so many independent data.

This is because Lechmere did not give the the time he saw the body.The coroner was inferring from and relying from the 3 PC's, especially Neale and Thains testimonies of their 3:45 am discovery but not far from it, as it was already discovered earlier by Lechmere. He is asking listeners to step back and count backwards just like what we are doing, estimating the time Lechmere/Paul interacted plus their walk to Mizen.

I am going with the inquest statements, they were under oath and fined for perjury if lying.

As for Thain I do not know, he was not asked questions, when did he leave for the doctor and did he went straight. Then we could have had a statement under oath.
Did he went straight to the doctor?

Daily Telegraph:
By the Jury: When I went to the horse-slaughterer's for my cape I did not say that
I was going to fetch a doctor, as a murder had been committed. Another constable had taken my cape there.

Times:
By the Jury: When he was sent for the doctor he did not first go to the horse-slaughterers and say that as a murder
had been committed he had better fetch his cape

Post #80 showed the time favored by the professors,the time before Lechmere's arrival. But with the 3:40 time, the time under oath.

[Mark J D]

That's what Neal said. Argue with him. The boots of Thain and his footsteps were louder perhaps. And Paul, in a statement somewhere, said he was wary when he saw Lechmere as there were roughs around the neighborhood, so he probably moved less conspicuously.

Sorry; I can't make sense of this.

M.

[Fisherman]

Before the policemen testified in the inquest they had submitted a written statement. It is then given to the coroner. They figured out their time by the time it is written and they probably conferred.

-Coroner: The time at which the body was found cannot have been far from 3.45 a.m., as it is fixed by so many independent data.

This is because Lechmere did not give the the time he saw the body.The coroner was inferring from and relying from the 3 PC's, especially Neale and Thains testimonies of their 3:45 am discovery but not far from it, as it was already discovered earlier by Lechmere. He is asking listeners to step back and count backwards just like what we are doing, estimating the time Lechmere/Paul interacted plus their walk to Mizen.

I am going with the inquest statements, they were under oath and fined for perjury if lying.

As for Thain I do not know, he was not asked questions, when did he leave for the doctor and did he went straight. Then we could have had a statement under oath.
Did he went straight to the doctor?

Daily Telegraph:
By the Jury: When I went to the horse-slaughterer's for my cape I did not say that
I was going to fetch a doctor, as a murder had been committed. Another constable had taken my cape there.

Times:
By the Jury: When he was sent for the doctor he did not first go to the horse-slaughterers and say that as a murder
had been committed he had better fetch his cape

Post #80 showed the time favored by the professors,the time before Lechmere's arrival. But with the 3:40 time, the time under oath.

You can lead a horse to water, but ...

The coroner and anybody else knew quite well that John Neil walked Bucks Row eastwards and that Lechmere and Paul walked it westwards, and so many minutes must be added to the time after which Lechmere left the body and until Neil found it. Plus, of course, Neil did NOT hurry down Bucks Row, since he had no idea what would happen. He would have trodden the street at normarl patrolling speed, which was a slow pace.

Therefore, a full five minutes - at least - should tell PC Neil and the carmen apart up at Browns Stable Yard. Which of course means that when Baxter said that the time the body was found would not be far off 3.45, he did not mean that the PC:s were called into action simultaneously with when Lechmere and Paul was by the body.

The approach you need to take to defend your view - unless you choose to dip your nose into the water I am offering, neeiiiigh! - is to make the same claim as the ever exotic Steve Blomer did when confronted with the same info. He said that when Baxter said that the body must have been found not far off the 3.45 mark, the coroner actually meant that 3.40 is not far off the 3.45 mark.

We all do our ripperology as best as we can, and a little inventiveness never hurt, eh?

Now, over to that cape again. Letīs return to the gloom of Bucks Row and what transpired there once more.

PC Neil found Nichols on his beat, and signalled his colleague John Thain down. As Thain arrived, Neil told him that there was a woman with her throat cut open on the pavement, and instructed his fellow constable to "Run at once for Dr Llewellyn!"

He did not tell Thain to take a leisurely stroll to Whitechapel Road and the practive - he told Thain to run. Haste was required.

And now you are suggesting that Thain instead ran into the butchers shop in Winthrop street to fetch his cape, before getting Llewellyn.

Ask yourself, which is the more reasonable thing:

That Thain got his cape before getting Llewellyn, or...

... that he got it AFTER fetching the doctor?

You quote the Daily Telegraph and the Times but do these reports not seem odd to you? Do they really seem to say that Thain got his cape before getting the doctor - or do they point to how he DENIED such a thing?

As always, muddled reports are hard to make sense of. But what if there are other reports, that cannot be misunderstood and that clear the matter up? And lo and behold, there is such a report. You have the right source, but the wrong day and witness. The Times of the 4th has a little something to say about this, quoting Henry Tomkins, who spoke about how:
Witness and Mumford first went and saw the deceased, and then Brittan followed. At that time a doctor and three or four constables were there, and witness remained there until the body was taken away. At night he and his mates generally went out to have a drink. It depended upon what time their work was done when they went home.
So the slaughtermen went to the site to have a look at what was going on.But how did they know something was afoot? Well, because John Thain told them about it.
And in your version of this event, he did so BEFORE he went to get Thain; he supposedly went into the butchers shop, got his cape and informed the butchers about what had happened in Bucks Row, and only then did he go for Llewellyn.
However, this is how the continued testimony on Tomkins behalf looks:
The constable was at the slaughterhouse at about a quarter past 4, when he called for his cape. It was then that they heard of the murder.

So John Thain came to the slaughterhouse at 4.15 to get his cape, and he simultaneously told the butchers about the murder in Bucks Row.

And when was it he got Llewellyn? Yes, at 3.55 - 4.00. Meaning that Llewellyn arrived in Bucks Row at 4.05 - 4.10.

And 4.15, is that BEFORE or AFTER 4.05 - 4.10?

I can lead a horse to water, but can I make it drink? Letīs see.

[Varqm]

You can lead a horse to water, but ...

The coroner and anybody else knew quite well that John Neil walked Bucks Row eastwards and that Lechmere and Paul walked it westwards, and so many minutes must be added to the time after which Lechmere left the body and until Neil found it. Plus, of course, Neil did NOT hurry down Bucks Row, since he had no idea what would happen. He would have trodden the street at normarl patrolling speed, which was a slow pace.

Therefore, a full five minutes - at least - should tell PC Neil and the carmen apart up at Browns Stable Yard. Which of course means that when Baxter said that the time the body was found would not be far off 3.45, he did not mean that the PC:s were called into action simultaneously with when Lechmere and Paul was by the body.

The approach you need to take to defend your view - unless you choose to dip your nose into the water I am offering, neeiiiigh! - is to make the same claim as the ever exotic Steve Blomer did when confronted with the same info. He said that when Baxter said that the body must have been found not far off the 3.45 mark, the coroner actually meant that 3.40 is not far off the 3.45 mark.

We all do our ripperology as best as we can, and a little inventiveness never hurt, eh?

Now, over to that cape again. Letīs return to the gloom of Bucks Row and what transpired there once more.

PC Neil found Nichols on his beat, and signalled his colleague John Thain down. As Thain arrived, Neil told him that there was a woman with her throat cut open on the pavement, and instructed his fellow constable to "Run at once for Dr Llewellyn!"

He did not tell Thain to take a leisurely stroll to Whitechapel Road and the practive - he told Thain to run. Haste was required.

And now you are suggesting that Thain instead ran into the butchers shop in Winthrop street to fetch his cape, before getting Llewellyn.

Ask yourself, which is the more reasonable thing:

That Thain got his cape before getting Llewellyn, or...

... that he got it AFTER fetching the doctor?

You quote the Daily Telegraph and the Times but do these reports not seem odd to you? Do they really seem to say that Thain got his cape before getting the doctor - or do they point to how he DENIED such a thing?

As always, muddled reports are hard to make sense of. But what if there are other reports, that cannot be misunderstood and that clear the matter up? And lo and behold, there is such a report. You have the right source, but the wrong day and witness. The Times of the 4th has a little something to say about this, quoting Henry Tomkins, who spoke about how:
Witness and Mumford first went and saw the deceased, and then Brittan followed. At that time a doctor and three or four constables were there, and witness remained there until the body was taken away. At night he and his mates generally went out to have a drink. It depended upon what time their work was done when they went home.
So the slaughtermen went to the site to have a look at what was going on.But how did they know something was afoot? Well, because John Thain told them about it.
And in your version of this event, he did so BEFORE he went to get Thain; he supposedly went into the butchers shop, got his cape and informed the butchers about what had happened in Bucks Row, and only then did he go for Llewellyn.
However, this is how the continued testimony on Tomkins behalf looks:
The constable was at the slaughterhouse at about a quarter past 4, when he called for his cape. It was then that they heard of the murder.

So John Thain came to the slaughterhouse at 4.15 to get his cape, and he simultaneously told the butchers about the murder in Bucks Row.

And when was it he got Llewellyn? Yes, at 3.55 - 4.00. Meaning that Llewellyn arrived in Bucks Row at 4.05 - 4.10.

And 4.15, is that BEFORE or AFTER 4.05 - 4.10?

I can lead a horse to water, but can I make it drink? Letīs see.

As far as Thain, it was being implied that he did it before he went to the doctor, that thats what he said.

There were 2 not 1 PC who stated their times as 3:45 when they discovered Nichols death. And 1 PC who said he engaged the previous discover(s) at 3:45.
3 PC's.
All we know is Thain walked to the murder spot which brings us to around/close to 2:47.It's unclear with Thain, how long did he talked with Neale and checked the body, what time did he leave, did he went straight. Thain checked the railway arches when he went back if I remember. Maybe Lewellyn got his time wrong.

[Fisherman]

As far as Thain, it was being implied that he did it before he went to the doctor, that thats what he said.

But isn’ t the thing that Tomkins dispelled any such thing what matters? And if it is not, then why…?

There were 2 not 1 PC who stated their times as 3:45 when they discovered Nichols death. And 1 PC who said he engaged the previous discover(s) at 3:45.
3 PC's.

And there was a lot of independent data that established that they were wrong!

All we know is Thain walked to the murder spot which brings us to around/close to 2:47.It's unclear with Thain, how long did he talked with Neale and checked the body, what time did he leave, did he went straight. Thain checked the railway arches when he went back if I remember. Maybe Lewellyn got his time wrong.

Once more, if Thain got to the murder spot at 3.47, then why did it take him 8-13 minutes to reach Llewellyn who was 2-3 minutes away? Because he checked railway arches? Really? And no, Llewellyn did not get his time wrong. If Thain fetched him at 3.49, why did it take the pair until 4.05-4.10 before thay got to the site?

Maybe I’ m not wrong after all? Or is it just unfair that my timings add up?

[Fisherman]

A question for you, Varqm: Why do you think it was suggested that Thain could have gone and fetched his cape before he went to the doctor? Why did he have to deny this suggestion before the inquest? Any thoughts about that?

[Fisherman]

A question for you, Varqm: Why do you think it was suggested that Thain could have gone and fetched his cape before he went to the doctor? Why did he have to deny this suggestion before the inquest? Any thoughts about that?

Okay, since I have not yeat received any answer from Varqm. ll provide my own:

I think that when it was stated by Thain that he was called into action by Neil at 3.45, the coroner started wondering how on earth it could have taken Thain so long to reach Llewellyns practice. If Neil sent Thain there at approximately 3.46 - 3-47, Thain should have arrived at the practice at 3.48 - 3.50, but he didnīt get there until 3.55. So where did the extra 5-8 minutes come from? The one and only matter that offered itself up in this context would be the cape and the conversation with the butchers in Winthrop Street, and so Baxter probably suggested that Thain had gone there first, before going for the doctor.
However, as we can see from the quotation below...

He did not take his cape to the slaughterers, but sent it by a brother constable. When he was sent for the doctor he did not first go to the horse-slaughterers and say that as a murder had been committed he had better fetch his cape. (The Times)

...Thain denied having done things like that. And we know from Tomkinsī testimony that Thain was correct in protesting: he actually only made the trip to the knackers AFTER he had delivered Llewellyn to the murder spot, arriving there at 4.15.

Once Baxter found out that Thain had sped off directly to Llewellyn, he immediately knew that the 3.45 timing Thain had spoken of could not be true. And if Thains 3.45 timing was not true, then neither were Neils and Mizens timings.

Of course, when three PC:s all agree on a timing, it becomes tempting to believe them, but once we can see the Baxter and the police both changed that belief after having checked the facts, then we should also accept that the PC:s were wrong. One may ask oneself why they were wrong, and there may be different explanations to that question. Maybe a public clock, chiming the time, was off and all three PC:s went along with it, thinking it was instead right. Maybe they spoke to one and other before the inquest and agreed on the timing - and got it wrong. That matter is however secondary to the fact that it was decided that they WERE wrong, based on the case facts.

[Fiver]

And the phantom killer still took time and trouble to cover up the wounds...

Nichol's killer did not cover up her wounds.

"Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood." - Robert Paul

[Abby Normal]

the wound was a gash starting from just under the breast down her abdoman to the stomach, so unless they somehow came back down covering the stomach on their own, tje killer almost certainly pulled her clothes back over the wound.