Evidence of innocence

[Fiver]

Have you taken a crash course in Ma Lechmere’s history, or have you found yourself a secret advisor?

Crash course? How have you missed that I have been posting for nearly a year-and-a-half?

Secret advisor? You've never heard of Google?

[Fiver]

By the way, what do you know about Tiger Bay?

Which Tiger Bay? The one centered on Brunswick Street? The one in Cardiff? The one in Angola?

[Fiver]

And weren’t you shown that those carmen also had long breaks throughout their working day? Or do you imagine that such carmen climbed onto their carts at, say, 4.00am and didn’t get off again until 10pm?

Neither. No one has shown that carmen got long breaks, nor did I claim that carmen never got any breaks.

[Abby Normal]

Which Tiger Bay? The one centered on Brunswick Street? The one in Cardiff? The one in Angola?

lol which Tiger Bay? The Bay of Bengal to the east of India of course.

[Abby Normal]

Crash course? How have you missed that I have been posting for nearly a year-and-a-half?

Secret advisor? You've never heard of Google?

lol ok now thats funny. good one

[MrBarnett]

lol which Tiger Bay? The Bay of Bengal to the east of India of course.

The one we have been discussing, the one centred on Frederick Street.

[MrBarnett]

Crash course? How have you missed that I have been posting for nearly a year-and-a-half?

Secret advisor? You've never heard of Google?

Just 18 months. It feels a lot longer. And when in that epoch did you start displaying a detailed knowledge of Maria Lechmere’s history? Only recently, so ‘crash course’ it is. And I have no problem believing it was with the aid of Google. There’s no false dichotomy here. Either you have boned up on Ma recently yourself or you have been assisted.

[MrBarnett]

Neither. No one has shown that carmen got long breaks, nor did I claim that carmen never got any breaks.

You have been shown examples of carmen taking g long breaks. Don’t waste everybody’s time by raking that old chestnut again. You were proved wrong. Just get over it.

[MrBarnett]

The one we have been discussing, the one centred on Frederick Street.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/27492-tiger-bay

[Fiver]

You have been shown examples of carmen taking g long breaks. Don’t waste everybody’s time by raking that old chestnut again. You were proved wrong. Just get over it.

If you actually show me evidence, I will accept it. So where is you evidence that Victorian carmen were allowed to take long breaks?

[John Wheat]

If you actually show me evidence, I will accept it. So where is you evidence that Victorian carmen were allowed to take long breaks?

I'd like to see some evidence Lechmere was guilty of anything.

[Fiver]

Incidentally, while at James Street, the family were described in a Booth Survey as ‘v. decent’- a very rare compliment for residents of St George in the East. The Lechmeres were clearly a cut above their neighbours, and yet we’re supposed to believe that CAL did not have the social nouse to remove his apron or disclose his real (and quite prestigious) name at the inquest?

John Allen Lechmere was an apparent drunk, a failed businessman, and a man who abandoned his wife and children. Charles ma have felt a lot of things about his father, but prestige wasn't one of them.

And what's your obsession with the apron? Plenty people testified at the inquests in their normal, everyday wear.

[Fiver]

I can only find 3 examples of the name Charles Allen Lechmere having been registered since the beginning of time until 1888: our man and two of his sons, one of whom had died by 1888 and the other was still a small child.

There are, however, several Charles Lechmeres that were alive at the time and living in London. If he was trying to hide his identity, why did he give his middle name of Allen?

[Fiver]

Why did carmen wear aprons? One reason was to protect their clothes from flying horse ****.

Flying is the word for it, since it sure wouldn't be obeying the law of gravity.

Here's an example of a Pickfords van from Pickfords website.



Note that the carman's feet are above the horses rear and his feet are resting on footboard, which is between the horse's rear and the carman.

Now ask yourself, if you were asked to appear in court in the middle of your working day wouldn’t you do the best you could to make yourself look presentable - respectable? I know I would. If I was wearing a rough old, possibly ****-stained, apron I’d take it off and roll it up. Have you seen the photo of Lechmere’s son (Thomas Allen I think) and his wife circa 1890? They are very smartly dressed. The whole family is ‘v.decent’ in 1887 and yet the head of the household, the grandson of a butler in one of the most prominent families in England whose mother was brought up on a grand country estate, doesn’t think to take his apron off? Odd.

Charles Allen Lechmere was testifying at an inquest, not posing for a family portrait.

[Fiver]

If he was transporting horse flesh, say, from Broad Street to one of Harrison, Barber’s premises, why would he have needed to stash a kidney or whatever in his locker?

Transporting horse flesh to a slaughterhouse?

It didn't work that way.

I recommend the linked thread.

Post 1, by Simon Wood, shows how horses were brought to Harrison Barbers.

I also recommend Posts 14 and 20 by Gary Barnett, which completely undermine the idea of transporting horse flesh from, say, Broad Street station to one of Harrison, Barber's premises.