Evidence of innocence

[Abby Normal]

And you think this makes Jeff look bad?

yeah and you too. do you have any relevant arguments to make or are you resigned to making worthless ad hominems?

[MrBarnett]

oh i thought your position was

"The idea that using the last name Cross would fool anyone is ludicrous".

is not his name cross an alias? yes of course it is. was he more commonly known as Lechmere? seems like it. hence using the name Cross, he could fool people who only knew him as lechmere, into not knowing that he, lechmere, was involved in a murder.

but if this still is "attacking a position youve never held" please clarify, so I can.

I don’t know why you bother, Abby. The point is so obvious. A decade after his stepfather died he moved to James street where he lived for a decade before moving to Doveton Street. While at James Street his kids were registered at school in the name of Lechmere, so all their classmates and by extension many of their parents and siblings, as well as their neighbours local tradesmen etc would almost certainly have known the family as the Lechmeres. Why would any of their James Street contacts have necessarily recognised a Charles Cross of Doveton Street? The possibility that he concealed that name so as not to be recognised is very real.

Incidentally, while at James Street, the family were described in a Booth Survey as ‘v. decent’- a very rare compliment for residents of St George in the East. The Lechmeres were clearly a cut above their neighbours, and yet we’re supposed to believe that CAL did not have the social nouse to remove his apron or disclose his real (and quite prestigious) name at the inquest?
He made a conscious decision not to reveal his real name.

[MrBarnett]

From the evidence of the 1861 census, while Maria (Lechmere’s mother) was living in Thomas (Pinchin) Street and her young ‘husband’ (they weren’t legally married because her first husband was still alive) was grappling with the local tigresses and their bullies (pimps), her sister Charlotte was living at The Court, Monnington-on-Wye in Herefordshire. Charlotte’s husband was the butler to the Rev Gilbert Lewis, Canon of Worcester Cathedral and a local magistrate, who was resident at the Monnington Rectory.

Photo below: The Court (top) and the Rectory (below), Monnington-on-Wye.

[MrBarnett]

I can only find 3 examples of the name Charles Allen Lechmere having been registered since the beginning of time until 1888: our man and two of his sons, one of whom had died by 1888 and the other was still a small child.

[MrBarnett]

Lechmere’s mother left her native Herefordshire, where she had very influential connections, and moved to one of the most violent and vice-ridden quarters of the East End (Tiger Bay) to set up home with a policeman who was little more than a boy, a decade younger than she was. She went through a form of marriage with her toy boy (he lied about his age) which was illegal because her first husband was still alive. Her first husband’s cousin was a policeman in Hereford at about the same time.

So there’s another possible reason why CAL did not follow the common procedure and reveal that although he used his stepfather’s name of Cross, his real name was Charles Allen Lechmere. There were a number of people in Herefordshire who when they read that would immediately recognise the pretty well unique name CAL and realise that his mother had committed bigamy.

So now we have two entirely plausible reasons why he might have deliberately chosen to conceal his identity.

[MrBarnett]

This is Whitfield, the country home of Edward Bolton Clive. Lechmere’s mother was born and grew up in a lodge on the estate. Her father, Thomas Roulson, was EBC’s butler and when Clive died he left a sizeable bequest to Roulson which shortly afterwards was passed down to his three daughters, one of whom was Maria, CAL’s mother. The inheritance was in the form of income from investments that were under the control of the Clive family.

[MrBarnett]

Off the top of my head, I can’t recall the name of EBC’s son who was the executor of his will and therefore to a degree controlled Maria Lechmere’s finances, but he was a man of the cloth, a prebendary of Hereford cathedral, and a local magistrate who was instrumental in the creation of the Hereford City Police Force. So, you see, Maria had a pretty powerful connection in Hereford and yet she and her toy boy PC chose to bury themselves in one of the worst areas in the East End. While they lived in Thomas (Pinchin) Street, the next street down was Frederick Street. Imagine how difficult it must have been for a woman with Maria’s background to raise two children in such an environment.

[MrBarnett]

Apologies for the outpouring of what many may feel is irrelevant info. For me, an appreciation of Lechmere’s family background is useful in deciding whether he was the sort of ignorant Cockney guttersnipe who had no idea how to present himself in a coroner’s court. I don’t believe he was.

[Aethelwulf]

Apologies for the outpouring of what many may feel is irrelevant info. For me, an appreciation Lechmere’s family background is useful in deciding whether he was the sort of ignorant Cockney guttersnipe who had no idea how to present himself in a coroner’s court. I don’t believe he was.

I think Lech was known by the name Lechmere and chose to use Cross deliberately. I think he did that due to his mother's circumstances and to save the family name being identified in something as unbecoming as a murder investigation. I don't see their needs to be anything suspicious about it.

I don't understand the significance of the apron though.

[MrBarnett]

I think Lech was known by the name Lechmere and chose to use Cross deliberately. I think he did that due to his mother's circumstances and to save the family name being identified in something as unbecoming as a murder investigation. I don't see their needs to be anything suspicious about it.

I don't understand the significance of the apron though.

There doesn’t need to be anything suspicious about it, but it is just as plausible that he wanted to avoid being recognised by someone in London who only knew him as Lechmere.

Why did carmen wear aprons? One reason was to protect their clothes from flying horse ****. Now ask yourself, if you were asked to appear in court in the middle of your working day wouldn’t you do the best you could to make yourself look presentable - respectable? I know I would. If I was wearing a rough old, possibly ****-stained, apron I’d take it off and roll it up. Have you seen the photo of Lechmere’s son (Thomas Allen I think) and his wife circa 1890? They are very smartly dressed. The whole family is ‘v.decent’ in 1887 and yet the head of the household, the grandson of a butler in one of the most prominent families in England whose mother was brought up on a grand country estate, doesn’t think to take his apron off? Odd.

[Abby Normal]

I don’t know why you bother, Abby. The point is so obvious. A decade after his stepfather died he moved to James street where he lived for a decade before moving to Doveton Street. While at James Street his kids were registered at school in the name of Lechmere, so all their classmates and by extension many of their parents and siblings, as well as their neighbours local tradesmen etc would almost certainly have known the family as the Lechmeres. Why would any of their James Street contacts have necessarily recognised a Charles Cross of Doveton Street? The possibility that he concealed that name so as not to be recognised is very real.

Incidentally, while at James Street, the family were described in a Booth Survey as ‘v. decent’- a very rare compliment for residents of St George in the East. The Lechmeres were clearly a cut above their neighbours, and yet we’re supposed to believe that CAL did not have the social nouse to remove his apron or disclose his real (and quite prestigious) name at the inquest?
He made a conscious decision not to reveal his real name.

agree and great points. Anyone whos ever had children in school would know the huge amount of friends and acquaintances you acquire and the large amount of info(gossip) about families that gets spread among them. Finding a dead body, a victim of the WC murderer no less would have been a big one.

and like you, I think using the alias cross, could also probably just keep his family out of unwanted attention, dosnt even have to be because hes guilty. the anti lechers get so hysterical though they cant even bring themselves to admit this could be the reason he used an alias and not to reveal his real name.
so, yeah, I think im done bothering with this one.

[Abby Normal]

Apologies for the outpouring of what many may feel is irrelevant info. For me, an appreciation of Lechmere’s family background is useful in deciding whether he was the sort of ignorant Cockney guttersnipe who had no idea how to present himself in a coroner’s court. I don’t believe he was.

no worries Gary
actually good details here and relevant. And interesting background-thanks for posting!

[Abby Normal]

I think Lech was known by the name Lechmere and chose to use Cross deliberately. I think he did that due to his mother's circumstances and to save the family name being identified in something as unbecoming as a murder investigation. I don't see their needs to be anything suspicious about it.

I don't understand the significance of the apron though.

totally agree Wulf

re the apron-I think the thought about him wearing the apron in court and not dressing up, is because he didnt want people to know why he was dressing up that day-ie going to court. he didnt want people knowing he was going to court. while an interesting tidbit, and possibly true, I personally dont put much into it, but I can see why others think it might be significant.

[Fiver]

yes it does. destroys it actually.

[harry]

Does Paul's evidence have any real value? Does it matter how Cross was dressed? The theory of Cross having killed Nichols,relies on Cross being at the scene ,and in company of a live Nichols,prior to the arrival of Paul.Where is evidene of that?