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  • harry
    replied
    Well yes Mr Barnett.we are making progress.For the first time,yourself and Fisherman,in your last posts,did not declare my use of the name Cross was incorrect.Well done both of you

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Click image for larger version Name:	5A91FB39-365F-4620-B60D-C6A9B224AB5D.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	210.8 KB ID:	768819

    Here’s another interesting case. A Pickford’s driver diverting from his route to offload a chest of stolen tea.

    Poor old Fiver, his rather simplistic view of the work routines of Pickfords drivers seems not to have been true.
    Poor old Barnett, putting words in my mouth again so he can refute something I never said.

    This drop of stolen goods would have taken only a minute or two, which would not be a noticeable delay to the schedule.

    Finding a prostitute, persuading her you were safe to go with, going somewhere with her, killing and mutilating her, cleaning up afterwards, and hurring back to the cart could have taken half an hour or more, which would have left a noticeable delay to the schedule.
    Last edited by Fiver; Today, 12:04 AM.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Click image for larger version

Name:	0F0AC6AD-E43F-489E-BD5F-BD59CD50F4D0.jpeg
Views:	0
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ID:	768817 Fiver,

    Perhaps you’d like to comment on this report from 1903.
    Last I checked the murders took place in 1888, not 1903.

    Pickfords was using van boys in 1883.

    Pickfords was using van boys in 1889.

    Pickfords was using van boys in 1891.

    Pickfords was using ban boys in 1893.

    Pickfords was using van boys in 1899.



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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Click image for larger version  Name:	5A91FB39-365F-4620-B60D-C6A9B224AB5D.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	210.8 KB ID:	768819

    Here’s another interesting case. A Pickford’s driver diverting from his route to offload a chest of stolen tea.

    Poor old Fiver, his rather simplistic view of the work routines of Pickfords drivers seems not to have been true.
    Last edited by MrBarnett; Yesterday, 10:31 PM.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Click image for larger version

Name:	0F0AC6AD-E43F-489E-BD5F-BD59CD50F4D0.jpeg
Views:	0
Size:	122.4 KB
ID:	768817 Fiver,

    Perhaps you’d like to comment on this report from 1903.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Why do we imagine that Pickford’s drivers were so notorious for their reckless driving?

    Could it have been because when they were late in delivering something or returning to their depot they got in trouble?
    It sure wasn't because they were all busy leaving their cart unattended so they could go murder prostitutes.

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    But they were never late, were they? At least not according to 5r, and he’s Googled it extensively.
    You aren't just putting words in my mouth here, you are saying the exact opposite of what I actually posted. The best interpretation I can put on that is you aren't understanding what I said.

    Here it is for the umteenth time.

    "Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Even if one of their drivers had been a psychopathic serial killer he wouldn’t have dared be half an hour late back to his depot.

    There’s your ‘evidence of innocence’.
    Again you put words in my mouth. I never said that. I never implied that. You are attacking a position I do not hold.

    "Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    A shift is not just a start time. It’s the period between a start and finish time. And it can vary from day to day.
    Did you miss that I posted the 1891 article that showed Pickford's carman worked 14 to 18 hour days? And that even before that I had stated that shift lengths vary for delivery drivers? To quote you - do try and keep up.

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Do you somehow imagine that all Pickford’s carmen were monitored from the moment their shift started until the moment it ended?
    Again you put words in my mouth. I never claimed carmen were monitored "from the moment their shift started until the moment it ended".

    Is being constantly monitored the entire time your definition of an alibi? If so, it's a rather poor definition.

    As I have already repeatedly stated, Pickford's often assigned "van guards" or "van boys" to prevent pilferage by the general public or their own carmen. The Old Baiely records, which I have cited before, are full of examples.

    Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    What is your obsession with horseflesh? Pickford's was "universal carrier". They were not a butchers or slaugherhouses. They transported meat - they did not process meat. Most of what they carried was not meat - I've shown this with various period sources. If they carried meat, it was processed meat, not raw bleeding chunks of flesh. You do realize this was an era where there were health laws about meat processing and transport? You do realize that meat could be frozen, smoked, boiled, etc? You do realize it would be packaged to try to prevent any leakage onto other goods or the cart itself?

    Where and when Pickford's received horseflesh is irrelevant to my point. Where it and when it was delivered is also irrelevant to my point.

    Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.
    Fresh, raw meat arrived at Broad Street every day.

    Where is your evidence that Pickfords only carried ‘processed’ meat?






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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Pickfords was a ‘universal carrier’, they carried pretty much anything you could imagine - including butcher’s meat and horseflesh. And where would the horseflesh that arrived at Broad Street have been taken? You must know the answer to this to support your ‘alibi’ claim. It couldn’t possibly have been anywhere to the east of the City, could it?
    What is your obsession with horseflesh? Pickford's was "universal carrier". They were not a butchers or slaugherhouses. They transported meat - they did not process meat. Most of what they carried was not meat - I've shown this with various period sources. If they carried meat, it was processed meat, not raw bleeding chunks of flesh. You do realize this was an era where there were health laws about meat processing and transport? You do realize that meat could be frozen, smoked, boiled, etc? You do realize it would be packaged to try to prevent any leakage onto other goods or the cart itself?

    Where and when Pickford's received horseflesh is irrelevant to my point. Where it and when it was delivered is also irrelevant to my point.

    Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    Your do delight in putting words in my mouth.

    I never claimed to know exactly when Chapman was killed. I did show all the witnesses who put it after Lechemre would have been at work.

    I never claimed to know exactly were Lechmere was every moment. I pointed out that he had an alibi for the time frame that Chapman was killed.

    You trying to rewrite the definition of "alibi" does not change that.
    In order for you state definitively that Lechmere had an alibi for the Chapman murder you must know when Chapman was killed and where Lechmere was at the time.

    Where was he?

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    You do so love putting words in my mouth. I never claimed any cache of secret knowledge.

    His relatives in Herefordshire are irrelevant to my point. They would have had no idea if he was telling the truth.

    Whether his Doveton Street neighbors had ever heard of Thomas Cross is irrelevant to my point. You didn't need to know that to put together that Charles Allen Lechmere and Charles Allen Cross both lived and 22 Doveton Street, were carmen for Pickfords, worked at the Broad Street Station, started their shift at 4am, and had been with Pickford's for about 20 years.

    Charles Lechmere's use of the Cross surname was unusual, but it was not an attempt to hide his identity from the police, his employers, his coworkers, his neighbors or his family. Charles Lechmere came forward to testify even though neither PC Mizen nor Robert Paul knew him as Cross or Lechmere or any other name. Charles Lechmere gave his home and work addresses at the Inquest. He gave his first and middle names as well as his stepfather's surname.


    So now you claim to know Lechmere’s motivation for using Cross and Cross only? It wasn’t to hide his identity from anyone in any way?











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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    This is becoming more than absurd.

    Where was CAL when Chapman was killed? You obviously know otherwise you wouldn’t claim he had an alibi.

    Where was he????
    What is absurd is you continuing to badger me on points I already answered, putting words in my mouth, and redefining the word "alibi".

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    God, I envy 5r! Not only does he know exactly when Chapman was killed, he also knows where Charles Lechmere was at that very time.
    Your do delight in putting words in my mouth.

    I never claimed to know exactly when Chapman was killed. I did show all the witnesses who put it after Lechemre would have been at work.

    I never claimed to know exactly were Lechmere was every moment. I pointed out that he had an alibi for the time frame that Chapman was killed.

    You trying to rewrite the definition of "alibi" does not change that.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Were his family in Herefordshire aware that he was using the name Cross, living in MEOT and working as a carman for Pickfords?

    Were his neighbours in Doveton Street aware of his mother’s bigamous marriage to Thomas Cross 30 years previously?

    You seem to have an amazing cache of secret knowledge.
    You do so love putting words in my mouth. I never claimed any cache of secret knowledge.

    His relatives in Herefordshire are irrelevant to my point. They would have had no idea if he was telling the truth.

    Whether his Doveton Street neighbors had ever heard of Thomas Cross is irrelevant to my point. You didn't need to know that to put together that Charles Allen Lechmere and Charles Allen Cross both lived and 22 Doveton Street, were carmen for Pickfords, worked at the Broad Street Station, started their shift at 4am, and had been with Pickford's for about 20 years.

    Charles Lechmere's use of the Cross surname was unusual, but it was not an attempt to hide his identity from the police, his employers, his coworkers, his neighbors or his family. Charles Lechmere came forward to testify even though neither PC Mizen nor Robert Paul knew him as Cross or Lechmere or any other name. Charles Lechmere gave his home and work addresses at the Inquest. He gave his first and middle names as well as his stepfather's surname.



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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    Clearly Wynne E. Baxter knew his as Charles Cross. And the jurors at the Nichols Inquest. And the court employees who were present. And reporters and members of the general public. And anyone present at the 1876 Walter Williams Inquest.

    Of course that doesn't answer the real questions.

    Did the police and the courts also know him as Charles Lechmere?
    Did his employers and coworkers know him as Cross or as Lechmere?
    Did his neighbors know him as Cross or Lechmere?

    So far, all police and court documents use Cross, but we probably don't have all the documents.

    Unless Pickfords still has period employment records or the Carman's Union has a period member list, we'll probably never know what they called him.

    We're even less likely to know what the neighbors called him. There is a good chance it was both at different times in his life. The information might have existed once in a letter or diary, but it's probably long gone.



    Some of the London Carmen’s Trade Union records do still exist.
    Last edited by MrBarnett; Yesterday, 08:52 PM.

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