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  • But, the fact remains, no one heard them, that can't be ignored.

    Therefore there is no evidence to suggest they walked down the street making a noise louder than a 90's hip hopper with a ghettoblaster on his shoulder blaring out Grandmaster Flash's and the Furious Five's, The Message.
    dustymiller
    aka drstrange

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
      With regards to Cross/Lechmere hearing Paul (and vice versa), the sound of their own footfalls will be much louder than those of the other person 40-50 yards away. Cross/Lechmere is unlikely to have heard Paul walking behind him until he stopped moving himself, which is what it sounds like actually happened. He stopped in the middle of the street trying to work out what he was seeing, and that's when he could hear the distant footsteps of Paul.

      Paul, on the other hand, may have been aware of Cross/Lechmere for much longer as one would expect him to be able to see the fellow ahead, unless he's a ground looker (walks with their head down, looking not that far ahead of themselves rather than looking down the street at things more distant). We don't know when Paul first became aware of Lechmere as I don't think he's asked that specifically.

      In the end, Cross/Lechmere not hearing Paul behind him is probably no more mysterious than the fact he's walking to work, his own movements being enough to mask the footsteps of someone well behind him.

      - Jeff
      Hi Jeff,

      You make some good points in the above comments. Lechmere said that he heard Paul approaching whereas Paul doesn't mention hearing Lechmere, but says he saw him. The problem for analysis is Paul's account to Lloyds is quite contradictory of his inquest statement and the reports of the different newspapers on the inquest are also contradictory in places.

      I should add that I am by no means rusted on to Lechmere as a suspect, but I feel that there are enough anomalies to keep him on my Persons of Interest list, albiet not anywhere near the top.

      Cheers, George
      “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

      Comment


      • In my first job, 1979. You were allowed 3 min or you were docked 15, clocking in machine. Coincidentally the clocking in machine was invented in Nov 1888.
        So perhaps Lech and Paul may not have been monitored to the exact minute ?
        Regards Darryl

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
          But, the fact remains, no one heard them, that can't be ignored.
          Hi Dusty,

          I'm not quite following you here. It can't be argued that they didn't walk down the street. At that hour, when most residents were asleep, it would just not have been notable. When I am asleep at 3am I don't hear traffic in the street, which is louder than footfalls, but I do hear unusual activities such as the occasional burnout at the intersection or a truck downshifting and applying air brakes.

          Cheers, George
          “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
            In my first job, 1979. You were allowed 3 min or you were docked 15, clocking in machine. Coincidentally the clocking in machine was invented in Nov 1888.
            So perhaps Lech and Paul may not have been monitored to the exact minute ?
            Regards Darryl
            Hi Darryl,

            It was the same for my first job. But Lechmere and Paul would have known how long they needed to allocate to be on time, and both stated they were running late on that day. The Times recorded Lechmere as saying he left that morning at 3:20am so he should have been running a little early. Other newspapers quote him as saying he left at 3:30am. These inconsistancies, and the clock sync problem are part of the problem with our deliberations.

            Cheers, George
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

            Comment


            • Mmes Purkis and Lilley were awake and Mrs Green says she would have heard a noise as she was a light sleeper. If the two men were noisey, Mrs Purkis would have said she heard them. Plus, if Neil was, as we assume, in Thomas Street when the two men went past, he too should have heard them, if they were as loud as Lechmereites claim.

              Where isn any evidence that they were noisey? If not, on what basis are people claiming they were?
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

              Comment


              • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                Mmes Purkis and Lilley were awake and Mrs Green says she would have heard a noise as she was a light sleeper. If the two men were noisey, Mrs Purkis would have said she heard them. Plus, if Neil was, as we assume, in Thomas Street when the two men went past, he too should have heard them, if they were as loud as Lechmereites claim.

                Where isn any evidence that they were noisey? If not, on what basis are people claiming they were?
                Hi Dusty,

                It is my understanding that rubber soled shoes were not that common at that time. There were reports that Leather Apron wore slippers, but this could not be assumed for carmen. My thought is that footfalls in the street were commonplace and not worthy of comment. I suspect the police would have been asking about screams rather than foot traffic. Thain was wearing loud foot wear but no one is recorded as reporting hearing his progress up and down the Row, or of Neil on his beat as did Mortimer. I would think that Neil was also accustomed to hearing the foot falls of men on their way to work without reporting that as an incident. When the two men went past it was, at that time, just a normal evening beat for Neil.

                Cheers, George
                Last edited by GBinOz; 08-11-2021, 07:48 AM.
                “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                  Where isn any evidence that they were noisey? If not, on what basis are people claiming they were?
                  Is there any evidence that they were wearing quiet foot wear. If not, it must be assumed that they were wearing the common foot wear of the day, being hard soled shoes or boots.

                  Cheers, George
                  “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                  Comment


                  • Polly’s boots had steel tips on the heels - no one mentioned having heard her.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GUT View Post

                      What would the pavement have been made of? Any idea?
                      flag stones, or parts of ,i suspect.
                      not silent but not like cobbles either.

                      For me the issues are that we mske assumptions about the footware.
                      we also assume that because Neil heard Thain at 130 yards, that paul should have heard lechmere. can i submit that there are differences.

                      1) Neil was probably aware that Thain was due to pass, and may have been actively listening.

                      2) police walked at a measured tread, heavy so they could be heard.


                      steve

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                        Hi Caz,

                        The normal expectation for raising the alarm I would have thought been to beckon him over to where the woman was lying, accompanied by a verbal such as "look, there is a woman lying here". But Lechmere didn't do that. In an area that Paul described as dangerous Lechmere moved towards Paul to intercept his attempt to walk by and reached out at him before he said anything. Was he hoping Paul would run away?

                        Cheers, George
                        George,

                        i think you need to allow for the width of the road, only 24 ft, if lechmere is in the middle, its only a couple of steps to the pavement

                        steve

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi Steve,

                          I daresay that Thain was walking on the pavement on the opposite side of Brady St (thanks to Dusty for that information) and was still heard by Neil over 130 yards away. It has to be conceded that the police would have been wearing hobnail boots were as the foot wear of the carmen is unknown, but it would be a pretty good bet that they were hard soled long wearing boots.

                          Cheers, George
                          can i submit that there are differences.

                          1) Neil was probably aware that Thain was due to pass, and may have been actively listening.

                          2) police walked at a measured tread, heavy so they could be heard.
                          Its unlikely that the carmen intentionally walked heavy like the police.
                          It's also likely that neither was actively listen, until they reached close to Brown's yard.

                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • >>Is there any evidence that they were wearing quiet foot wear.<<

                            Yes.

                            Purkis, Lilley, Green, Neil and Cross.
                            dustymiller
                            aka drstrange

                            Comment


                            • >>Polly’s boots had steel tips on the heels - no one mentioned having heard her.<<

                              She had "tips on the heels" no mention of what material they were, I would guess steel, but who knows. That's hardly the same as hob nail boots.
                              dustymiller
                              aka drstrange

                              Comment


                              • Some pavements were timber block in Victorian London, how much would foot falls be heard there?
                                G U T

                                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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