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  • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    Pretty much. It all comes down to whether you believe Lechmere or not, and I see no reason to doubt his version of events. Although skeptics will show the surname he gave in court and the conflicted testimony with PC Mizen as signs of duplicity.
    Hi Harry,

    You also have to think it reasonable that two men could walk down the cobblestones of Bucks Row for 70 yards without becoming aware of each other. If you were the discoverer of a body in an area known for knockdown robberies and a stranger approached you out of the dark, would you move to incercept and touch him on the shoulder before requesting help? When he came that close I would not have been surprised if Paul had knocked Lechmere down and run away.

    Cheers, George
    Last edited by GBinOz; 08-10-2021, 07:50 AM.
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
      You also have to think it reasonable that two men could walk down the cobblestones of Bucks Row for 70 yards without becoming aware of each other. If you were the discoverer of a body in an area known for knockdown robberies and a stranger approached you out of the dark, would you move to incercept and touch him on the shoulder before requesting help? When he came that close I would not have been surprised if Paul had knocked Lechmere down and run away.
      Hi George,

      Sorry for butting in, but wouldn’t the things you mention go both ways? I mean, if you suggest that Lechmere and Paul should have heard each other in case Lechmere was innocent, then wouldn’t that also be true in case Lechmere was guilty? Whoever killed Nichols would have had every reason to listen for sounds and we know Neil could hear Thain 130 yards away, but if we suppose Lechmere was the killer, we have to assume he didn’t hear Paul until the latter had covered part of the 130 yards between them, with each and every step getting closer and louder. And if Paul was on alert the whole way down Buck’s Row to where he saw Lechmere, then why shouldn’t he have heard a guilty Lechmere move around the body and then away from it not too far ahead of him? And if it wouldn’t have been surprising if Paul had knocked down Lechmere, then wouldn’t it have been surprising, regardless of whether Lechmere was guilty or innocent?

      Cheers,
      Frank


      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        Hi Jeff,

        It is I that made an error, not you. I was remembering Frank's post #553 and his estimates for 3.1 and 3.7 mph, which I rounded out, were for 70 yards rather than 110 yards. Humble apologies.

        Cheers, George
        Ah, well, it certainly sounds like something I could do!

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Thats why this is a very weak theory, one has first to believe of Lechmere guilt then try to find excuses to keep the flame on:

          -Maybe he didn't hear Paul coming
          -Maybe he wanted to inject himself in the investigations
          -Maybe Cross was not the name he was known as at work
          -Maybe he was a psychopath
          -Maybe he didn't panic
          -Maybe he had a dominant mother
          -Maybe he didn't care he had the murder's weapon on himself
          -Maybe he convinced Paul to tell a white lie
          -Maybe he lied to Mizen within an earshot and Paul didn't hear a thing
          -Maybe he didn't care of being watched by the police after the inquest, in spite of him contradicting a policeman and went killing in 5 days
          -Maybe he don't care he had a dozen of children and their mother to feed
          -Maybe he was sure he wouldn't be search and has no blood on himself whatsoever
          -Maybe the blood was ozzing as flowing!
          -Maybe she was killed within minutes of Paul arriving
          -Maybe she was already in Buck's row with a client before
          Maybe he was the Torso Killer!!!!!
          -Maybe he liked killing pregnant women! and playing with their fetus! (I wounder why he didn't killed his wife she was pregnant all the time!)
          -....


          Endless excuses to fit Lechmere in.

          I will add one 'Maybe' to the festival:

          -Maybe because it is too damn difficult to admit you were wrong all the time!




          The Baron

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
            Hi George,

            Sorry for butting in, but wouldn’t the things you mention go both ways? I mean, if you suggest that Lechmere and Paul should have heard each other in case Lechmere was innocent, then wouldn’t that also be true in case Lechmere was guilty? Whoever killed Nichols would have had every reason to listen for sounds and we know Neil could hear Thain 130 yards away, but if we suppose Lechmere was the killer, we have to assume he didn’t hear Paul until the latter had covered part of the 130 yards between them, with each and every step getting closer and louder. And if Paul was on alert the whole way down Buck’s Row to where he saw Lechmere, then why shouldn’t he have heard a guilty Lechmere move around the body and then away from it not too far ahead of him? And if it wouldn’t have been surprising if Paul had knocked down Lechmere, then wouldn’t it have been surprising, regardless of whether Lechmere was guilty or innocent?

            Cheers,
            Frank
            Hi Frank,

            It is always a pleasure to hear from you. Innocent or guilty, they should have been aware of each other if only 40 yards apart as Lechmere testified. If they weren't, Lechmere should have heard Paul as, or just before, Paul turned into Bucks Row. If Lechmere was kneeling over the body he would have then decided on flight or bluff. Since the ripper's MO included leaving the mutilation wounds and the body posed "on display", the reason for covering the wounds would have been to bluff a witness. On a revised time of around 1min 30sec for Paul to arrive, Lechmere would have been cutting, not moving, and he then needed time to thoroughly clean up and adjust the clothing. As Paul approached he would have stood up "where the woman was". Had he decided on flight instead he still would have have to have taken time to clean his knife and his hands in case he ran into Neil or Mizen and they shone their lamp on him.

            Regardless of whether Lechmere was guilty or innocent, I find it very strange that Lechmere chose to approach Paul in what must have appeared to be a threatening manner, including reaching out at him, before he said a word to him. Seems to be inviting a self defensive response. Would it not have been more sensible to just speak to Paul when he started to give him a wide berth?

            Cheers, George
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dickere View Post

              Being found alone at the scene of the crime immediately after it occurred is rather more than "weak at best".
              Robert Paul saw Lechmere in the middle of the street, but it was Lechmere who engaged with Paul and requested his assistance. Paul didn't even know if a crime had been committed, never mind if this was 'immediately' after it occurred.

              I often wonder if the killer heard the two carmen approaching after throttling Nichols into unconsciousness, then waited in the darkness for them to bugger off before slitting her throat and mutilating her abdomen, and it was PC Neil's approach that sent him hurrying on his way.

              It seems extraordinary to me that neither carman noticed her head was nearly off, but even more extraordinary if Lechmere did that to her and expected Paul not to notice anything amiss and think she might just have passed out drunk.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Columbo View Post

                Actually he was seen in the middle of the street looking in the direction of the body according to Paul.

                Try this: put an object 210 feet from you (70 yards) and see how fast it takes you to walk to it at a normal fashion. 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 25 seconds? that's how long Cross had to do all the post actions he's accused of. Hiding a knife, covering the wounds, wiping his hands and getting to the middle of the street in time for Paul NOT to see him walk away from the body. Not to mention the fact that Cross needed to know when and where Paul was in order to pull this off. Not gonna happen.

                The man discovered the body. If not him then the police. Maybe even Paul.
                And if Lechmere heard Paul before he saw him, it could just as easily have been PC Neil approaching.

                We are asked to believe that Lechmere bluffed it out in those circumstances, not knowing who the next man along might turn out to be, or how much more curious this man might be to see what was really the matter with Lechmere's human "tarpaulin".

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                  Abby, firstly hi, hope you are ok.
                  why do people keep saying he didn't raise the alarm?

                  Within seconds of seeing the body(according to him, anything else is speculation and should not be used to say he didn't raise the alarm) , he calls Paul walking some 40 yards behind him to the body. Is that not raising the alarm?

                  Or would you suggest, he should have knocked on doors of people who could be asleep, and in doing so allow Paul to walk past?

                  Do we really think he should have stood in the road, shouting " look at this woman, she may need help" ?
                  Or should he have raised the incident with the only person he saw, and headed off to find a policeman?

                  Seriously, what do people think in the scenero where he is walking 40 yards ahead of Paul and sees the body he SHOULD have done?
                  Specifics?


                  Steve
                  Hi Steve,

                  I've raised this point before, that if it had been PC Neil instead of Robert Paul, who was the next man to arrive, would Lechmere still be accused of not raising the alarm, if he behaved towards the PC exactly as he did with Paul, and beckoned him over to where the woman was lying?

                  I don't recall seeing a sensible answer.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                    Of course, Lechmere ‘raised the alarm’ - twice, once to Paul and once to Mizen. But his hand may have been forced into doing so by the arrival of Paul. That’s the point isn’t it, that if Paul had not found him ‘where the woman was’ he may not have mentioned it to anyone?


                    How could Lechmere have known he only had to deal with the unsuspecting Robert Paul? He had no idea who was approaching. Would he not have been done for if it had been PC Neil, shining a light on his recent handiwork, while he just stood there looking sheepish, with his fingers and toes tightly crossed?

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by caz View Post

                      And if Lechmere heard Paul before he saw him, it could just as easily have been PC Neil approaching.

                      We are asked to believe that Lechmere bluffed it out in those circumstances, not knowing who the next man along might turn out to be, or how much more curious this man might be to see what was really the matter with Lechmere's human "tarpaulin".

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X


                      I remember reading a brilliant post of Caz, where she presented another case for a person who also confused a body with a tarpaulin.


                      But the Lechmerians remained in their subzero state of denial.



                      The Baron

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                        Dury, not Drury, obviously.

                        I was hoping for an opportunity to use the dreadful pun, ‘Hit me with your Lytham shtick’.
                        What a waste, Gary!

                        Love,

                        Another Ian Dury fan
                        X

                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                          He would have been gone before Paul probably even sees the body. Let alone examine it.
                          And that's IF Paul sees the body and doesn't just walk past, thinking it's a bundle of rags - or a tarpaulin.

                          And IF he sees it, he then has to examine it before he can know whether the woman is alive and sleeping rough or dead drunk, or injured, or perhaps even dead.

                          And IF he does all that and concludes she has been foully murdered [which we know he doesn't in reality], Lechmere will surely be long gone before Paul can raise the alarm.

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X
                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                            Just a thought, but when I worked shifts, I had to be there on the hour, yet always aimed to arrive ten minutes or so before that. Most people like a little margin of safety. When Davies found Annie's body. The two men he first met were waiting outside their place of work, so they had evidently arrived with a few minutes in hand too.
                            Hi Josh,

                            When my late father-in-law worked in a foundry in the East End, in the 1930s and 40s, if you were so much as a minute late, you were automatically docked a quarter of an hour's wages, so it was very important to leave home in good time and allow for any unforeseen delays on the way. I imagine it would have been similarly strict in 1888.

                            Love,

                            Caz
                            X

                            "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by caz View Post

                              What a waste, Gary!

                              Love,

                              Another Ian Dury fan
                              X
                              Don't forget we have 'clever' Trevor in here too

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by caz View Post

                                How could Lechmere have known he only had to deal with the unsuspecting Robert Paul? He had no idea who was approaching. Would he not have been done for if it had been PC Neil, shining a light on his recent handiwork, while he just stood there looking sheepish, with his fingers and toes tightly crossed?

                                Love,

                                Caz
                                X
                                Wouldn't the answer be the same, he's just discovered the body. Though he may have added that yes he did hear footsteps running quickly away in that direction officer if you're quick. Allowing him to make his own exit and or ditch the knife.

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