Evidence of innocence

[Abby Normal]

We will disagree Abby.

But what else should he have done?

Steve

its not a matter of what he should or shouldnt have done, but what he was seen doing.
i know most of the dodgy things with lech could have innocent explanations, and beleive it or not, i think they probably do. but perhaps they dont.

Im only having a hard time with anti lechers bewildering denial to obvious red flags.

but i think part of it is also my personality as i tend to try to be positive toward valid suspects and look at them as a range of possibility instead of black/white yes/no.


well just have to agree to disagree my friend.

[Fiver]

It was your post. If you were quoting someone else, you should have used quotation marks.

I wasn't quoting anybody else.

[GBinOz]

Hi George

I use to say its all about perception, are you aware of events or in a bubble. If you do the same action everyday , like travelling to work on public transport, this often happens, you miss or nearly miss you stop, despite annouchments.
And if that exact spot was known for problems, then you may switch on as you approach it.
And that still applies, but it was very dark, and Paul had only just left home, his eyes had not started to adjust to the low light at this point. Focus would be poor, but you may notice movement, say from the pavement into the road.
I give a good explanation of distances between Lech and Paul, in "Inside Bucks Row " the next update will touch on the vision issue, which will be covered in far greater detail in another work I have planned on lighting.

As for the first comment, better to approach than call out when you are unsure just what's happened.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I agree that awareness can be reduced during routine tasks, and vision in the dark can be difficult unless prompted by movement, however the visual response would have been prompted by hearing Lechmere walking in a narrow cobblestoned street, presumably in hard soled shoes, only 40 yards away. Neil heard Thain passing along Brady St at a distance of 120 yards away. One could speculate on the possibility of soft rubber soled shoes, but that was unusual for the day and would have cast more suspicion on Lechmere for the reason he needed quiet shoes.

On the first comment, "better to approach than call out when you are unsure just what's happened" is OK up to a point. When you are waiting for someone to approach and he deliberately tries to avoid you, it is, IMHO, unusual behaviour to move to block his path and make physical contact before speaking to him.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I still think it’s strange that he didn’t scarper if he heard Paul’s approach from some distance away (echoing hobnailed boots). Especially as he heard Paul before he saw him? If Paul had, in effect, sneaked up on him and ‘appeared’ say, 20 or 30 yards away I could perhaps understand it as Lechmere couldn’t have been sure that Paul wasn’t the have-a-go hero type who might have taken it upon himself to chase after him if he’d decided to run. But even in that circumstance Lechmere couldn’t have been anything like certain that he hadn’t got blood on his clothing. If he could think quickly enough to come up with the Scam in such short notice then he’d certainly have been aware that calling Paul over might have resulted in an eventual meeting with a Constable with him having wet blood on his clothing and carrying a bloodied knife. Or that going in search of a Constable with Paul would have meant passing a lamp or two which could have led to Paul seeing wet blood on him.

Hi Herlock,

I have a grandson who is on the autism spectrum. He thinks quite differently to me and I find his behaviour strange at times, but I have learned to accept that his thinking is not at all strange to him. It's the same with psychopaths. Having read your posts I am not yet certain that you are a psychopath just joking!! so what seems strange to you would not seem strange to a serial killer. He would more likely to see it as a challenge, or part of what he sees as a game.

Nichols was strangled so there probably would not have been arterial spray on the killer's clothes. Jeff calculated that it would have taken Paul about 40 seconds to walk down Buck's Row to where the body was located. If Lechmere was crouched over the body when he heard Paul, he needed to clean his hands and the knife thoroughly on Nichols clothing. He then covered the wounds, where as when he scarpered from other victims when not interrupted, he left them fully on display. Had Mizen searched him, his explanation for the knife would presumably have been that he was required to carry a knife for his job as a carman.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

Columbo beat me to the punch, but if Lechmere's cargo had been stolen or tampered with, that was a sackable offence. We are being asked to believe that Lechmere was up to tricks like this for decades, committing different strings of murders across London, but in reality he was gainfully employed throughout his life.

hi harry
well to be clear.. different strings of murder is the ripper and torso series. so just two and i beleive you also lean toward they were commited by the same man? or you did. re employment- many serial killers were employed their whole lives and also killed either to/from work or on the job, including some who had very similar jobs to lechmere. like truck driver Robert Rhodes just off the top of my head but i know there are many other truck driver serial killers.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I agree that awareness can be reduced during routine tasks, and vision in the dark can be difficult unless prompted by movement, however the visual response would have been prompted by hearing Lechmere walking in a narrow cobblestoned street, presumably in hard soled shoes, only 40 yards away. Neil heard Thain passing along Brady St at a distance of 120 yards away. One could speculate on the possibility of soft rubber soled shoes, but that was unusual for the day and would have cast more suspicion on Lechmere for the reason he needed quiet shoes.

On the first comment, "better to approach than call out when you are unsure just what's happened" is OK up to a point. When you are waiting for someone to approach and he deliberately tries to avoid you, it is, IMHO, unusual behaviour to move to block his path and make physical contact before speaking to him.

Cheers, George

same points about perception with vision apply equally to sound. indeed Lechmere apparently ONLY hears Paul when he stops walking himself George.

He doesnt try and block paul. paul moves into the Road, Lechmere puts his hand on Paul's shoulder, hardly blocking.


steve

[Elamarna]

Nichols was strangled so there probably would not have been arterial spray on the killer's clothes. Jeff calculated that it would have taken Paul about 40 seconds to walk down Buck's Row to where the body was located. If Lechmere was crouched over the body when he heard Paul, he needed to clean his hands and the knife thoroughly on Nichols clothing. He then covered the wounds, where as when he scarpered from other victims when not interrupted, he left them fully on display. Had Mizen searched him, his explanation for the knife would presumably have been that he was required to carry a knife for his job as a carman.

Cheers, George

Hi George,
Jeff's 40 seconds is at the upper end of the possible walking speeds

It's 130 yards from the junction to the murder site.

At the possible walking speeds that's as follows

3mph( 88 yards per minute) 1min 29 seconds

3.5 mph (102.5 ypm) 1 min 16 sec

4mph (117 ypm) 1min 07 secs

5 mph (146 ypm) 53 seconds

6mph (176 ypm) 44 seconds

I suggest 6mph is unrealistic, I come to this conclusion by looking at the distances both he had Lechmere had to walk to work, and seeing what pave is neccessary.
With Paul it's approx 1364 yards from home to work.

At 3 mph that's about 15.5 min.

3.5 just over 13

4mph 11.5 min

5mph just over 9

6mph it's under 8 minutes.

So Lechmere probably had far more time than you imagine.
Indeed if he just got up and walked west, turned out at Board School and taken any of the available exits to Whitechapel Road, he would be out of sight in under 30 seconds at only 3.5 mph

At 4mph its about 25 seconds

At 5mph it's under 20 seconds.

He would have been gone before Paul probably even sees the body. Let alone examine it.


All these distances and walking speeds are covered in great depth in Inside Bucks Row.

Steve

[FrankO]

Jeff's 40 seconds is at the upper end of the possible walking speeds

It's 130 yards from the junction to the murder site.

At the possible walking speeds that's as follows

3mph( 88 yards per minute) 1min 29 seconds

3.5 mph (102.5 ypm) 1 min 16 sec

4mph (117 ypm) 1min 07 secs

5 mph (146 ypm) 53 seconds

6mph (176 ypm) 44 seconds

I suggest 6mph is unrealistic, I come to this conclusion by looking at the distances both he had Lechmere had to walk to work, and seeing what pave is neccessary.
With Paul it's approx 1364 yards from home to work.

Hi Steve,

I think even 5 mph is unrealistic. In fact, I'm about 5 ft 8 (so, about average male Victorian height) and I'll manage a maximum of around 6.4 km/hour or 4 mph over a longer distance.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

Hi George,
Jeff's 40 seconds is at the upper end of the possible walking speeds

It's 130 yards from the junction to the murder site.

At the possible walking speeds that's as follows

3mph( 88 yards per minute) 1min 29 seconds

3.5 mph (102.5 ypm) 1 min 16 sec

4mph (117 ypm) 1min 07 secs

5 mph (146 ypm) 53 seconds

6mph (176 ypm) 44 seconds

I suggest 6mph is unrealistic, I come to this conclusion by looking at the distances both he had Lechmere had to walk to work, and seeing what pave is neccessary.
With Paul it's approx 1364 yards from home to work.

At 3 mph that's about 15.5 min.

3.5 just over 13

4mph 11.5 min

5mph just over 9

6mph it's under 8 minutes.

So Lechmere probably had far more time than you imagine.
Indeed if he just got up and walked west, turned out at Board School and taken any of the available exits to Whitechapel Road, he would be out of sight in under 30 seconds at only 3.5 mph

At 4mph its about 25 seconds

At 5mph it's under 20 seconds.

He would have been gone before Paul probably even sees the body. Let alone examine it.


All these distances and walking speeds are covered in great depth in Inside Bucks Row.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Just to address the previous post, I should have used the word intercept rather than block. It still seems strange to me that, in an area known for knockdown robberies, Lechmere chose to make physical contact prior to verbal contact. With all due respect to your opinion, I can't agree that two men walking 40 yards apart in the Buck's Row environment would be unaware of each other.

Thank you for your walking speed analases. i thought it was 110 yards from the junction to the murder site, but that's a minor point. With regard to your walking times for Paul to reach work, if your median speed of 4mph 11.5 min is adjusted for Lechmere's time to walk to work, would it be around 23 min? That would make Lechmere early for his time that morning of 3:30 departure, and very early for his stated usual departure time of 3:20. I should add here that I place no stock on clock times, but I do on time differences.

I do agree that Lechmere would have had time to walk away, but I think that he chose not to do so. I think that if he had made the decision to walk away he would have left the body "on display" as he did for the other victims in these circumstances. This being possibly his first attempt he may have decided to cover and bluff rather than display and run.

I should conclude by saying that there are a number of things that I find strange with these circumstances which, by themselves would not be anything, but put together lead me to include Lechmere on my persons of interest list.

Cheers, George

[Joshua Rogan]

With regard to your walking times for Paul to reach work, if your median speed of 4mph 11.5 min is adjusted for Lechmere's time to walk to work, would it be around 23 min? That would make Lechmere early for his time that morning of 3:30 departure, and very early for his stated usual departure time of 3:20. I should add here that I place no stock on clock times, but I do on time differences.

Just a thought, but when I worked shifts, I had to be there on the hour, yet always aimed to arrive ten minutes or so before that. Most people like a little margin of safety. When Davies found Annie's body. The two men he first met were waiting outside their place of work, so they had evidently arrived with a few minutes in hand too.

I do agree that Lechmere would have had time to walk away, but I think that he chose not to do so. I think that if he had made the decision to walk away he would have left the body "on display" as he did for the other victims in these circumstances. This being possibly his first attempt he may have decided to cover and bluff rather than display and run.

Don't forget that the later victims had their still-attached intestines draped over their shoulders, and so pulling their skirts down to cover the wounds would have been impossible, not to say pointless. There was little choice but to leave those bodies "on display" as you put it.

[GBinOz]

Just a thought, but when I worked shifts, I had to be there on the hour, yet always aimed to arrive ten minutes or so before that. Most people like a little margin of safety. When Davies found Annie's body. The two men he first met were waiting outside their place of work, so they had evidently arrived with a few minutes in hand too.

Don't forget that the later victims had their still-attached intestines draped over their shoulders, and so pulling their skirts down to cover the wounds would have been impossible, not to say pointless. There was little choice but to leave those bodies "on display" as you put it.

Hi Joshua,

I too like to allow a margin to ensure I arrive on time, but that doesn't fit Lechmere's description that he was running late.

According to profilers that have been interviewed on youtube, leaving the victim "on display" (their term) was part of the MO. If Lechmere had been just the finder of the body and JtR had departed un-noticed then it would be expected that he would have followed his MO with the body "on display". But if the killer decided to stay with the body and bluff it out with a witness then he would have to cover the evidence instead.

Cheers, George

[paul g]

Did Letchmere do anything different or so out of sync when finding the victim.
obviously one victim was discovered by a policeman but the other three ( excluding Letchmere) all done the same as him . They made contact with the nearest person or persons or headed to where they the knew people would be .
They all raised the alarm in the same way so the same mind set after discovering a body as Letchmere did.

[JeffHamm]

Hi George,
Jeff's 40 seconds is at the upper end of the possible walking speeds

It's 130 yards from the junction to the murder site.

At the possible walking speeds that's as follows

3mph( 88 yards per minute) 1min 29 seconds

3.5 mph (102.5 ypm) 1 min 16 sec

4mph (117 ypm) 1min 07 secs

5 mph (146 ypm) 53 seconds

6mph (176 ypm) 44 seconds

I suggest 6mph is unrealistic, I come to this conclusion by looking at the distances both he had Lechmere had to walk to work, and seeing what pave is neccessary.
With Paul it's approx 1364 yards from home to work.

At 3 mph that's about 15.5 min.

3.5 just over 13

4mph 11.5 min

5mph just over 9

6mph it's under 8 minutes.

So Lechmere probably had far more time than you imagine.
Indeed if he just got up and walked west, turned out at Board School and taken any of the available exits to Whitechapel Road, he would be out of sight in under 30 seconds at only 3.5 mph

At 4mph its about 25 seconds

At 5mph it's under 20 seconds.

He would have been gone before Paul probably even sees the body. Let alone examine it.


All these distances and walking speeds are covered in great depth in Inside Bucks Row.

Steve

Oh dear, I'm not sure where I estimated 40 seconds, so can't be sure what my error would be, but it's possible I accidently put in 40 for the time as 40 yards between them has often been bandied about. Typically I use 3.5 mph as the estimated walking speed (that's reported to be the average walking speed for people), which would take about 1 min 16 seconds. At 3.5 mph, 40 seconds would cover about 68 yards. Anyway, I'll try and track that post down and make a correction. Sorry about that.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Oh dear, I'm not sure where I estimated 40 seconds, so can't be sure what my error would be, but it's possible I accidently put in 40 for the time as 40 yards between them has often been bandied about. Typically I use 3.5 mph as the estimated walking speed (that's reported to be the average walking speed for people), which would take about 1 min 16 seconds. At 3.5 mph, 40 seconds would cover about 68 yards. Anyway, I'll try and track that post down and make a correction. Sorry about that.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

It is I that made an error, not you. I was remembering Frank's post #553 and his estimates for 3.1 and 3.7 mph, which I rounded out, were for 70 yards rather than 110 yards. Humble apologies.

Cheers, George

[Harry D]

Did Letchmere do anything different or so out of sync when finding the victim.
obviously one victim was discovered by a policeman but the other three ( excluding Letchmere) all done the same as him . They made contact with the nearest person or persons or headed to where they the knew people would be .
They all raised the alarm in the same way so the same mind set after discovering a body as Letchmere did.

Pretty much. It all comes down to whether you believe Lechmere or not, and I see no reason to doubt his version of events. Although skeptics will show the surname he gave in court and the conflicted testimony with PC Mizen as signs of duplicity.