Why is the possibility of Lechmere interrupting the ripper so often discarded?

[John Wheat]

Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,

I disagree. All Lechmere did is find a body. I'm really not a fan of witnesses being turned into suspects in the case of the Jack the Ripper murders.

[milchmanuk]

Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,

JTR had to of seen Charles, reason for him stopping the process of mutilation , crazed man knows when to stop ! and then leave the scene or hide for a while. stopping in the act of he,s satisfaction.

[milchmanuk]

It's infinitely more likely than Lechmere being Jack the Ripper.

Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,

[John Wheat]

hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
or this been discussed.!

It's infinitely more likely than Lechmere being Jack the Ripper.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

As a result of your re-enactment, you said that you don’t believe Lechmere would have been able to discern anything lying at a distance of 12 metres and that this would only happen at 6 metres. So, my point was that the watchman, standing in or near the gateway of the wool warehouse, was able to see from more than 12 metres that nothing was lying where Nichols was later found, meaning that the lighting conditions were such that he could see the stable gateway and could discern there was nothing lying there.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I think I see where I have created a false impression. I actually did two re-enactments, the first using a wheelbarrow on a cloudy night and the second, acting on a suggestion by Jeff, using a simulated body on a starry night at a different location. The second re-enactment is Post 5395 here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...360#post779536

In the second re-enactment I was able to discern a dark shape that did, to my surprise, look like a tarpaulin, at 15 metres. I measured the distance from the centre of the wool warehouse gate to where Polly was found as 17 metres, so either the lighting was slightly better on that night, or perhaps the watchmen had better eyes or night vision than I. On the other hand, seeing a shape that is there is a slightly different exercise to not seeing a shape that isn't there, or seeing that there is no shape to see....isn't it?

The point I was making was that I was unable to discern the dress shape until between 2 and 4 metres, depending on the angle of approach, so Lech must have been relatively close to the body to have told Paul that is was a woman lying there.

Best regards, George

[FrankO]

Hi George,

This would have allowed him time to tidy up and prepare to tell his story. Why didn't he just walk away? That's a whole different topic for discussion, as we have seen.

Indeed, it would have allowed him time to tidy up & move away from the body. And then wait for around 1 minute for Paul to arrive? Possible? Yes. Probable? Nah, not for me.

I'm a little confused in following the point you are making regarding the watchman - you seem to be saying that he didn't see a body that wasn't there?

As a result of your re-enactment, you said that you don’t believe Lechmere would have been able to discern anything lying at a distance of 12 metres and that this would only happen at 6 metres. So, my point was that the watchman, standing in or near the gateway of the wool warehouse, was able to see from more than 12 metres that nothing was lying where Nichols was later found, meaning that the lighting conditions were such that he could see the stable gateway and could discern there was nothing lying there.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Verdana]Hi George,

I can understand your view, I suppose it’s just as difficult for me to swallow that a guilty Lechmere, who would have had every reason to listen for sounds, wouldn’t have heard Paul enter Buck’s Row from Brady Street, and even more difficult that he wouldn’t have heard him until Paul had covered some significant distance in Buck’s Row.

I actually agree with your hypothesis. If Lech was guilty then Paul did not hear his footsteps because Lech was stationary. Likewise, Lech would have heard Paul's footsteps as he entered the Row because Lech was stationary. This would have allowed him time to tidy up and prepare to tell his story. Why didn't he just walk away? That's a whole different topic for discussion, as we have seen.

I know that you did the re-enactment, I just don’t think we can be sure that the conditions were exactly the same as the conditions in Buck’s Row on that morning; plus, there’s also the fact that, according at least the Sunderland Daily Echo of 1 September, the watchman at Brown & Eagle’s wool warehouse stated that at exactly three o’clock, when he spoke to two men who stopped just outside his gate but moved on without any trouble, there was nobody lying in the stable gateway at that time. So, for me it needn’t have been 3 metres (which wouldn’t have been just 3 steps), it could also have been 5 or 7.

I concede that there is no way of duplicating the exact situation and conditions of that night. I'm a little confused in following the point you are making regarding the watchman - you seem to be saying that he didn't see a body that wasn't there?

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

When I did my recreation I assumed a dark night, as neither Lech nor Paul noticed the cut throat. I also approached my Polly shape both obliquely and from a right angle to the street alignment. The shape of a body became apparent sooner with the later approach. From my experience I am far from convinced that Lech could have determined that the shape on the ground was that of a woman's body from an oblique distance of 5 or 7 metres, and barely from a right angle distance of 3 metres.

Best regards, George

[FrankO]

I think that Paul's press statement indicated that he would have been adopting a heightened state of awareness in the Row.

Hi George,

Paul may very well have had a heightened state of awareness all the way down the row, but for me that’s certainly not a given. It seems that going down Buck’s Row was routine for him – after all, he still passed through it on an almost daily basis despite the dangerous reputation he knew it had - and he may only have become as alert as the press statement suggests after actually seeing this man standing in the middle of the street.

Had they been marching in unison, like a military drill, he may not have noticed Lechmere, but otherwise it is difficult for me to believe that Paul would not have been aware of someone walking in front of him, and that someone stopping in the street.

I can understand your view, I suppose it’s just as difficult for me to swallow that a guilty Lechmere, who would have had every reason to listen for sounds, wouldn’t have heard Paul enter Buck’s Row from Brady Street, and even more difficult that he wouldn’t have heard him until Paul had covered some significant distance in Buck’s Row.

As you are aware, I did a re-enactment of the scenario, and no shapes were visible at 40 metres, and it would not have been possible to know that the shape on the ground was that of a woman from a distance of more than 3 metres. If Lechmere became aware of Paul at a distance of more than 40 metres he could have cut Polly's throat, re-arranged her clothing and quietly taken three step into the middle of the road with Paul being none the wiser.

I know that you did the re-enactment, I just don’t think we can be sure that the conditions were exactly the same as the conditions in Buck’s Row on that morning; plus, there’s also the fact that, according at least the Sunderland Daily Echo of 1 September, the watchman at Brown & Eagle’s wool warehouse stated that at exactly three o’clock, when he spoke to two men who stopped just outside his gate but moved on without any trouble, there was nobody lying in the stable gateway at that time. So, for me it needn’t have been 3 metres (which wouldn’t have been just 3 steps), it could also have been 5 or 7.

All the best,
Frank

[GBinOz]

hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
or this been discussed.!

Hi Milch,

An interesting suggestion, and entirely plausible. I haven't seen discussion on that topic.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The train was the 3. 07 am from New Cross. I don't believe that there was any unloading etc, and all we can say is that the calculation of the time was done within a couple of days of the incident.

Hi Doc,

I think that the time of 3:30 was an observed time rather than one calculated from a timetable.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Conversely, it also seems to be a conflict to suggest that Paul would be so alert as a result of the dangerous reputation of the street that he would have heard Lechmere’s footsteps ahead of him, but wouldn’t necessarily have been as alert to the sudden footsteps made by Lechmere moving away from the body. If he's supposed to have been on high alert in one situation, he should be supposed to be exactly as alert in the other. Which was my original point (but it may very well have got drowned out by the sound of someone's footsteps ).

Of course, we don’t know where Paul was when a guilty Lechmere first heard him, but if he was able to see Paul only a few seconds after having taken his position in the middle of the street, then we could say that the two men were some 40 metres apart, just as in that situation where an innocent Lechmere was walking only 40 metres in front of Paul.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I think that Paul's press statement indicated that he would have been adopting a heightened state of awareness in the Row. Had they been marching in unison, like a military drill, he may not have noticed Lechmere, but otherwise it is difficult for me to believe that Paul would not have been aware of someone walking in front of him, and that someone stopping in the street.

As you are aware, I did a re-enactment of the scenario, and no shapes were visible at 40 metres, and it would not have been possible to know that the shape on the ground was that of a woman from a distance of more than 3 metres. If Lechmere became aware of Paul at a distance of more than 40 metres he could have cut Polly's throat, re-arranged her clothing and quietly taken three step into the middle of the road with Paul being none the wiser. However, if the lighting conditions in Bucks Row were better than just ambient starlight, and Paul's night vision was superior to mine, then my experiment may be less valid.

Best regards, George

[Scott Nelson]

Not to my knowledge, Milch. But it certainly seems possible.

[milchmanuk]

hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
or this been discussed.!

[FrankO]

It seems to me to be a conflict to suggest (not by you Abby) that Paul's own footsteps may have prevented him from hearing those of Lechmere only 40 metres in front of him, but they wouldn't have covered the sound of a throat cutting, dress rearrangement and three steps away from the body.

Hi George,

Conversely, it also seems to be a conflict to suggest that Paul would be so alert as a result of the dangerous reputation of the street that he would have heard Lechmere’s footsteps ahead of him, but wouldn’t necessarily have been as alert to the sudden footsteps made by Lechmere moving away from the body. If he's supposed to have been on high alert in one situation, he should be supposed to be exactly as alert in the other. Which was my original point (but it may very well have got drowned out by the sound of someone's footsteps ).

Of course, we don’t know where Paul was when a guilty Lechmere first heard him, but if he was able to see Paul only a few seconds after having taken his position in the middle of the street, then we could say that the two men were some 40 metres apart, just as in that situation where an innocent Lechmere was walking only 40 metres in front of Paul.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

hi frank
fair enough. full disclosure-Ive never agreed with fishs idea that Pollys throat was cut after the mutilations. we have a clear progression of the victims being strangled (and or possibly punched/blunt force trauma) first to incapacitate, then the throat cut and then mutilations. In my view if Lech was the killer, he was in process of cutting her abdoman, was startled by the sound of Paul approaching, and quickly pulled the skirt down and stood up stepping back away from the victim while putting the knife in his pocket. I may have been hasty with 1-2 seconds. so maybe 2-3 seconds. Then Paul sees him.

One thing I do is envision myself in various shoes of the witness, suspects victims etc at the time. In pauls case imagine you are him. its dark, your wary and suddenly as you enter bucks row you see the figure of man hesitating in the road near what turns out to be the body of a freshly killed women. it rattles you abit so you try to avoid the man but he approaches you as you try to pass, close enough to the point where he makes physical contact with you. Its creepy, scary and to me suspicious.

also, the whole Lech moving toward Paul as he tries to avoid him and tapping his shoulder thing is very odd to me, Its almost as if lech cant let him pass until he ascertains what the man had seen.

Hi Abby,

It wasn't Christer's idea that Polly's throat was cut after the mutilations. It was the medical opinion at the time, and was stated by the Coroner in the summary of Stride's Inquest.

I absolutely agree with your judgement that the whole Lech moving toward Paul as he tries to avoid him, and Paul allowing him to get close enough to tap his shoulder is very odd indeed. Given Paul's statement regarding the dangerous reputation of the area, I am surprised that, if this actually happened, that Paul didn't either try to run away, or sucker punch Lechmere and then run away.

It seems to me to be a conflict to suggest (not by you Abby) that Paul's own footsteps may have prevented him from hearing those of Lechmere only 40 metres in front of him, but they wouldn't have covered the sound of a throat cutting, dress rearrangement and three steps away from the body.

Cheers, George