Why is the possibility of Lechmere interrupting the ripper so often discarded?

[Fiver]

Bumping into Mizen subsequently forced their hand and they had no choice but to come forward. Initially it was reported a police officer had found the body but Mizens statement then drew Paul and Lechmere out from the woodwork.

How would bumping into Mozen force their hand? If they didn't want to get involved, Lechmere and Paul could have just kept walking instead of interrupting PC Mizen from knocking people up.

How could Mizen's statement draw anyone out of the woodwork? Robert Paul was talking to the press the evening of the same day, a day before anyone testified and three days before Mizen testified. On the day of the Inquest, PC Neil was asked about being called to the scene by two men and denied it. It's unclear if Lechmere contacted the police before or after the statements of Paul and Neil, but he definitely came forward before Mizen's inquest testimony as Lechmere was there in the courtroom, where he was identified by Mizen and gave testimony immediately after Mizen.

[JeffHamm]

....
For me, the killing doesn't seem finished and it's almost certain that he didn't finish what he wanted to do to Nichols. That may suggest he heard Lechmere approaching and fled?

Why leave early if he's not finished?
...

Hi RD,

One thing to keep in mind is that Nichols is the first of the mutilation murders. Serial Killers learn from their experiences, and build upon them, doing more of what they find satisfying and doing less of what they don't. While it is very likely that JtR had fantasized about murder, and destroying his victim via mutilations, if this is his first time then he also is engaging in these fantasies for real for the first time. How extensive those mutilations would need to be to satisfy him, combined with his fear of engaging in an activity that could get him hung if caught, is going to limit his activities. As he becomes more confident (because he gets away with it), and as he clearly found abdominal mutilations satisfying, we see him engaging in more and more of that activity in subsequent murders.

In short, the "pressure" for him to remain and mutilate more will be counter-balanced by the "pressure" for him to get away from the crime scene before he's spotted. So he may very well have reached the point where he "finished" with Nichols even though we see greater mutilations at later crime scenes. The order, and therefore experience level, of the offender needs to be considered.

The more his confidence grows, the weaker that 2nd pressure becomes, resulting in him spending more time at the crime scenes and therefore can do more extensive mutilations. And because he learns from previous experiences, if Chapman was murdered around the times Cadosche is going to and fro to the loo, then JtR is going to have learned two important things at least. First, people can emerge from nearby buildings unexpectedly even in the short time he's committing his murder (while that's obviously something he would always have "known" logically, to have it happened would increase his sense of it's probability - his ego and confidence in his invulnerability would have made him underestimate that probability in the Chapman case) and Second, h that he needs to have multiple exits and ensure that if anyone emerges he can't easily be seen).

If Stride is a JtR victim, and she might not be, but let's go with it for now. Then we know the area is quite dark, so that would fit the "I can't be easily seen here", but the location also only has one exit available to him (back onto Berner Street), and the singing and noise from the club also tells him there are lots of people in this building, and moreover, they are awake and doing things. This could be why she fits his criterion for murder, but at the same time, he finds it too risky to spend any additional time mutilating her. So he may have left for no other reason than that (doesn't require an external interruption, the interruption may be internally generated by his risk assessment, which would have been modified by his Chapman experience).

Eddowes, however, is in a quiet location, dark, and there are multiple exits for him to choose from should anyone emerge from the buildings facing the yard. Hence, he remains at the scene longer, engaging in even more extensive mutilations. However, now he's potentially interrupted by PC Harvey during his patrol of Church Passage. Due to the light at the end of Church Passage though, PC Harvey cannot see into Mitre Square, but JtR can see him clearly. PC Harvey turns around to leave, JtR flees, increasing again his sense of invulnerability but also increasing his awareness of just how probable it is for someone to come along, even during the few minutes he's engaging in his fantasies.

Which may explain why his next victim, Mary Kelly, is the only one indoors. He's adjusting his behaviors based upon the events of the previous murders, but still focused on his murder/mutilation obsessions.

I think it is easiest to understand how the mutilations increase over the sequence due to that "learning from experience" when we consider the cases in the order they occurred. But once we've done that, we can now understand the progression in the reverse order, making sense of the decreasing level of mutilations. And just like Mary Kelly ends up being the most extensively mutilated victim, it may not be surprising that Nichols is the least other than, of course Stride. So again, either she's not a JtR victim, so no further explanation required, or she is and perhaps something like what I suggest above accounts for her lack of an abdominal attack.

In short, I would be careful about us deciding what JtR considered to be "finished." I would suspect "finished" for him in the ideal sense would change over time, moving the goal post further into more and more extensive mutilations, but at the same time "finished" for him during an individual crime would be a complex decision between reaching that ideal goal while mitigating his concerns about getting caught. The latter of those will be influenced by what he's learned from the previous murders.

- Jeff

[Mark J D]

Interestingly, I believe she was the one of the most reliable witnesses that night.

She has always been underestimated as a witness.

There's a House of Lechmere video on this; in fact, I think there may be two. Can't post the link/s on here, as I got in trouble last time.

M.

[Abby Normal]

I agree, hence why McCarthy has always been considered a person of interest in the case.

McCarthy was dodgy and Bowyer worked for him, so the pair of them are suspicious IMO.

Interestingly, Bucks Row wasn't as dark as the site where Stride was found.
It was light enough for Lechmere to notice from the opposite side of the road before he chose to cross over to look at Nichols.
Paul arrived just as Lechmere was in the middle of the road.

But for Stride, extra light source was required to even notice her. Stride had been standing in the dark when she was murdered. But who stands in the dark alone?

i believe she had the Cachou to sweeten her breath, ready to kiss the man in the dark... Which is interesting considering she had been seen kissing a man around 11pm.

But going back to Bucks Row; it was light enough for Lechmere to see the body and so I don't buy the idea that they couldn't see any of her wounds.

At least one of them must have noticed something, and yet they claim they didn't.

Looking for the easy way out and not wanting to get involved with a dead prostitute?

They didn't want to help Nichols; they were just 2 curious men who then realised the situation was bigger than they were willing to deal with, and just walked away from her.

Bumping into Mizen subsequently forced their hand and they had no choice but to come forward. Initially it was reported a police officer had found the body but Mizens statement then drew Paul and Lechmere out from the woodwork.

They claimed they couldn't see any wounds to the body as a means by which they could disassociate from the incident. It was their justification for their moral ineptness.



RD

totally agree rd
what would they have done if they didnt run into a pc? probably never would have heard of them.

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes. Harriet Lilley, bless her heart.

M.

Interestingly, I believe she was the one of the most reliable witnesses that night.

She has always been underestimated as a witness.

RD

[Mark J D]

... but something just doesn't ring true...

Yes. Harriet Lilley, bless her heart.

M.

[drstrange169]

I don't disagree. It's certainly one possible scenario.

[The Rookie Detective]

" ... Bowyer and McCarthy went to the police ..."

There is an incredibly massive difference between what those two saw and what was visible in Buck's Row. Even so, there is an unexplained delay in between Bowyer and McCarthy seeing the body and their informing the police.

In fact, what was visible in Buck's Row was significantly different to what was visible to the discoverers of all the other victims.

I agree, hence why McCarthy has always been considered a person of interest in the case.

McCarthy was dodgy and Bowyer worked for him, so the pair of them are suspicious IMO.

Interestingly, Bucks Row wasn't as dark as the site where Stride was found.
It was light enough for Lechmere to notice from the opposite side of the road before he chose to cross over to look at Nichols.
Paul arrived just as Lechmere was in the middle of the road.

But for Stride, extra light source was required to even notice her. Stride had been standing in the dark when she was murdered. But who stands in the dark alone?

i believe she had the Cachou to sweeten her breath, ready to kiss the man in the dark... Which is interesting considering she had been seen kissing a man around 11pm.

But going back to Bucks Row; it was light enough for Lechmere to see the body and so I don't buy the idea that they couldn't see any of her wounds.

At least one of them must have noticed something, and yet they claim they didn't.

Looking for the easy way out and not wanting to get involved with a dead prostitute?

They didn't want to help Nichols; they were just 2 curious men who then realised the situation was bigger than they were willing to deal with, and just walked away from her.

Bumping into Mizen subsequently forced their hand and they had no choice but to come forward. Initially it was reported a police officer had found the body but Mizens statement then drew Paul and Lechmere out from the woodwork.

They claimed they couldn't see any wounds to the body as a means by which they could disassociate from the incident. It was their justification for their moral ineptness.



RD

[drstrange169]

" ... Bowyer and McCarthy went to the police ..."

There is an incredibly massive difference between what those two saw and what was visible in Buck's Row. Even so, there is an unexplained delay in between Bowyer and McCarthy seeing the body and their informing the police.

In fact, what was visible in Buck's Row was significantly different to what was visible to the discoverers of all the other victims.

[The Rookie Detective]

Davis told three other men and showed them the body. They were as together as Lechmere and Paul. None of them shouted. None ran for help. Only Davis went to the police.

Bowyer told McCarthy. They were as together as Lechmere and Paul. Neither of them shouted. Neither ran for help. They went to the police together, just like Lechmere and Paul.

And when Bowyer and McCarthy went to the police, did they tell an officer he was wanted in Millers Court, or did they tell the police that a woman had been murdered in Millers Court?

Davis went to the Police station in person. The reason for him going to the police station was to tell them about Chapmans body.

Lechmere and Paul never went to the police station.

It's the combination of lack of initial urgency plus the lack of relaying the message of a murdered/dead/dying woman that sets Paul and Lechmere apart from the others.

They didn't call for help
They didn't run for help
They didn't tell the police officer there was a dead/dying woman
They never went to the police station


RD

[Fiver]

Lechmere is different...because he and Paul were together and NEITHER of them shouted or ran for help.

That's my point.

Davis told three other men and showed them the body. They were as together as Lechmere and Paul. None of them shouted. None ran for help. Only Davis went to the police.

Bowyer told McCarthy. They were as together as Lechmere and Paul. Neither of them shouted. Neither ran for help. They went to the police together, just like Lechmere and Paul.

[The Rookie Detective]

Crow didn't shout for help when he found Tabram's body. He went in search of a policeman.
Davis didn't shout for help when he found Chapman's body. He contacted some other men nearby, showed them the body, and then went in search of a policeman.
Diemschutz didn't shout for help when he found Stride's body. He contacted some other men nearby, showed them the body, and then went in search of a policeman.
PC Watkin didn't shout for help when he found Eddowes' body. He contacted another man nearby, showed them the body, and that man ran to fetch more police.
Bowyer didn't shout for help when he found Kelly's body. He contacted another man nearby, showed them the body, and that man went in search of a policeman.
Lechmere didn't shout for help when he found Nichols' body. He contacted another men nearby, showed them the body, and both men went in search of a policeman.

So how is Lechmere different?

Lechmere is different...because he and Paul were together and NEITHER of them shouted or ran for help.

That's my point.

There were 2 of them and neither of them had any urgency to raise the alarm by at least calling/shouting for help, or by one of them running for help while the other stayed with Nichols, and then when they did decide to just leave Nichols and get back on their way to work, they happened to run into Mizen and then they STILL didn't have the urgency to tell him to hurry to Bucks Row. Meeting Mizen was the perfect opportunity to tell him to hurry to Bucks Row because a woman was dying or dead on the pavement.

Why were they so casual?

They only spoke to Mizen to cover the fact they'd just come from Bucks Row and knew that they would be suspected after being seen by Mizen.

Rather than telling him "Help, a dead woman is laying in Bucks Row" or "Hurry, a woman is dying in Bucks Row" they casually tell him he's wanted in Bucks Row.


That choice of phrase tells you everything you need to know about their mindset.

They just wanted to get to work, because declaring they've just found a drunken middle-aged dying or dead prostitute, would have meant being late for work and not worth it.


The choices people make and the things they say tell us a lot about their mindset and opinions at the time.


2 men and neither of them did a thing to help in the first instance, except tell a policeman he was needed.

Of course, Mizen is often criticized for his distinct lack of urgency after being approached by the 2 men, but he can only act on what he's been told and in the manner he's been told.

Nobody has been able to explain why neither Paul or Lechmere didn't just tell Mizen they had found a body, and because of that Lechmere has fallen victim to being labeled a suspect, purely because he happened to be there before Paul was.

I believe that when they examined her, they suddenly realized that she was either dying or dead and I think they did notice her neck wound and the blood. The reason why they didn't admit to seeing her injuries, is because it gives them some distance from someone else questioning their actions and motivations. By saying they never noticed her wounds, it acts as a form of "no comment", or "I didn't see anything so I can't help you"


IMO, they realized she had been savagely attacked and was in mortal danger, and then just decided to get out of there.

It's also interesting that by the time Mizen arrived, another PC was already at the scene.
That proves that the time between Lechmere and Paul leaving Nichols, to the time she was found by the officer, was no more than a few minutes at the very most.
On that basis, had EITHER of them shouted for help, the officer who eventually found her, would have been in close enough proximity to hear them and then rush to their aid. By not calling for help, delayed the time Nichols was eventually found by the policeman.

I think that's one of the reasons why Lechmere gave the name Cross; he was still trying to disassociate himself from the case.



RD

[Fiver]

Forget about screaming; they didn't even call for help.

The typical reaction would have been for at least one of them to shout for help; if that is, Nichols was still alive.

They both took the time to examine her, look for signs of life etc...but they didn't call for help.

Why was that?

Crow didn't shout for help when he found Tabram's body. He went in search of a policeman.
Davis didn't shout for help when he found Chapman's body. He contacted some other men nearby, showed them the body, and then went in search of a policeman.
Diemschutz didn't shout for help when he found Stride's body. He contacted some other men nearby, showed them the body, and then went in search of a policeman.
PC Watkin didn't shout for help when he found Eddowes' body. He contacted another man nearby, showed them the body, and that man ran to fetch more police.
Bowyer didn't shout for help when he found Kelly's body. He contacted another man nearby, showed them the body, and that man went in search of a policeman.
Lechmere didn't shout for help when he found Nichols' body. He contacted another men nearby, showed them the body, and both men went in search of a policeman.

So how is Lechmere different?

[rjpalmer]

The question is; had they have not bumped into a policeman, would either of them gone out of their way to seek one?

I believe the answer is no.

Since Lechmere didn't give his name to Mizen, how do you think the police were able to find him again so easily and call him to the inquest?

That's a bit of a mystery, isn't it? What might it suggest?

Since they did find him readily enough, how do we know that Lechmere didn't openly tell his employers and fellow employees about what he had found on his way to work or even contacted the police a second time once he arrived to work on time?

How else was he found?

And if he and Paul had behaved so horrifically, why were they not reprimanded at the inquest?

Coroner Wynne Baxter wasn't opposed to giving someone a dressing down in public if he thought they deserved it.

Personally, I don't think Lechmere and Paul deserve good conduct medals, but don't you find it strange that none of their contemporaries questioned their behavior if it was so out of the ordinary?

[The Rookie Detective]

Lechmere and Paul did seek help immediately, it just didn't involve running or screaming. The same is true for most of the people who first found victims. PC Neil only knew that Nichols was dead because he could see the throat wound with his lantern.

What was the approximate time frame between Lechmere initially finding the body to both of them walking and bumping into PC Mizen and telling him he was needed in Bucks Row?

It's not just the timing, it's the urgency and how the message was relayed to the Policeman.


The policeman's reaction tells us that either he wasn't bothered to do his duty, didn't take the men seriously, or they didn't relay the message with any sense of urgency.

Unless we choose to scrutinize Mizen; then what else would explain his own lack of urgency to get to the crime scene?


Forget about screaming; they didn't even call for help.

The typical reaction would have been for at least one of them to shout for help; if that is, Nichols was still alive.

They both took the time to examine her, look for signs of life etc...but they didn't call for help.

Why was that?

It speaks of 2 men who were more interested in getting to work and not getting involved, than of men who found a woman who clearly needed help (unless she was dead)

When you combine Lechmere and Paul's lack of

Calling out for help
One of them running to get a policeman while the other stayed with the body
Relaying to Mizen the seriousness of the situation...

the only way to excuse them is if they thought she was dead and they just wanted to not be involved.
That would then in turn explain Lechmere's slight delay in coming forward compared to Paul.

They can both be excused for encountering a dead or dying unfortunate who would have smelt of alcohol (based on her being drunk shortly beforehand), and then just deciding to walk away quietly and let it be someone else's problem. They just happened to encounter Mizen, who judging by his actions, based his reactions on the message he was given.

I don't believe Lechmere killed her, but I believe that there's a reason why it was initially reported that a policeman was the first to discover the body.
Lechmere's hand was forced and he had no choice to come forward.
His giving the name of Cross isn't suspicious, it's a way of again, trying to not be involved.

He and Paul had other priorities and that's okay.

Of course, that is based on Nichols already being dead, because if they thought she was alive, then EITHER calling for help, running for help or relaying the message to Mizen with a sense of utmost urgency would have been enough to vindicate both of them entirely.

Lechmere has been suspected for the wrong reasons. He was indifferent and somewhat cowardly in his reactions.
Paul couldn't wait to have his 15 minutes of fame in the spotlight.

That doesn't make them guilty; but is more a critique of their characters.

Lechmere has become a suspect because he failed to act accordingly and appropriately, and Paul is just as guilty of that behaviour. What saves Paul is that Lechmere was there first.

The fact he was seen standing in the middle of the road when Paul saw him, means he was just in the process of crossing the road at the time; hence why he only got there just before Paul. He went to Cross the road because he was drawn to the body to investigate. had he already been kneeling over the body when Paul arrived, it may be a little harder to explain.


The person who found Kelly sought help immediately and urgently
The person who found Stride did the same
The Policeman who found Eddowes did the same.
Chapman is arguable
Mckenzie was the same
Coles was found as the killer ran off

Nichols (and possibly Chapman) is the odd one out

The reason why Lechmere and Paul chose to state they weren't sure if she was dead, is because it was the only way to cover their lack of urgency to get help.


Of course, Mizen could be as equally guilty, but cna he be blamed for 2 men halfheartedly telling him he was needed, with NO mention of a woman being hurt, dying, dead etc... Their words alone suggest that they just wanted to get away and get to work because it was just too much of a hassle to get involved with a dead prostitute.


RD