Deadly occupations and serial murder

[Fisherman]

I normally don't bother much with Lechmere-threads - though I applaud the saintly patience of Elamarna and others who do - but the above statement is beyond the pale.

Nobody would take offense???


http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6162624

Please. The argument is either disingenuous or incredibly ill informed.

The last time you claimed that you normally don´t engage in Lechmere threads you had it pointed out to you that it was very odd how you are logged for myriads of posts on the topic anyway.

A reality check, perhaps?

I am not disingenuous and not ill informed, for the record. You quote how a Swedish politician was criticised for comparing the holocaust to the Mediterranean situation with refugees, and if anything, that should tell you that people in high office are quite prepared to use the holocaust in comparisons, just like I did. It was not how she used it so much as how political opponents thought the analogy was unfair that caused the humdrum.

Sweden was neutral in WWII, and we do not have the open wounds that the participating countries have. We are therefore quite prepared to see the issue from a more academical and less feeling-based point of view.

So much for being ill-informed, Kattrup. When you don´t even know which threads you have posted on, you may wish to avoid to discuss that particular issue.

[Elamarna]

It is a much worse match than a carman, actually. It is, however, an area I would closely watch for serial killers.

If Lechmere had been engaged in a union, he would have been a teamster. Just as todays truckers are.

A bargeman would not, for obvious reasons. But you are beginning to think in the kind of manner one must think when looking for serialists. There is hope!

I am not sure what belonging to a Trades Union has to do with it?

He would not be a teamster, that is a union based in the USA and has not connection to the UK.. it's a minor point but important none the less.
it is likely neither occupation would have been in a trades union in 1888.

Steve

[Fisherman]

Elamarna: So it not the occupation at all just that he travels past certain sections of society on his route? Or have you left something out, or I missed something?

I somehow fail to see how having a package in your car that requires a long trip will have you pondering serial murder. I am travelling a thousand miles or so to fish in Norway in late August, and I will bring luggage with me. I would hate to think that it may turn me murderous.
It is the environment surrounding the trucking that seem to be hard to overcome for some people, while others - I am sure - actively seek this underworld out.


Surely the same applies to most people who lived and worked in Whitechapel.

If they were exposed to the nightlife and prostitution on a regular basis and detested it, yes. But most people slept through all of that.

And even to those who travelled through it to and from work.

Yes, exactly. Like Lechmere.

Why do you assume Lechmere had plenty of time to brood Fish?
Apart from work, he lived a full family life did he not?

He must have had many hours alone on his cart, though. Which transcribes to a situation reminding me much of that of todays truckers.
Plus, of course, we do not know that he did live a full family life. For all we know, he could have been home only in very short periods of time.
There is too much asserted about how good his life was on no basis at all, I fear.
Then again, there are many serialists who have enjoyed "full family lifes" on the surface of things.

Why would he have more time to brood than someone in say street cleaning.

I didn´t say he did. I think a street cleaner would be a more likely person to develop a fascination/hatred with prostitutes and lowlife than, say, an accountant or a clerk. Many occupations offer brooding time, and I am not excluding any of them as being related in this sense to the trucker serialists. The thing is, though, that we are discussing how it has been revealed that the trucksters produce a fair amount of serialists, and therefore the focus of attention tends to land on them.

A nightwatchman, such as Mulshaw had far more time doing a 13 hour shift of doing very little.

Yes, and just like a street sweeper, I would say that he would make good serial killer material if he was of that disposition. If you recall the so called Jack the Stripper of the 60:s, you may remember that he was a night watchman by the looks of things (although he killed himself before getting caught, as I remember it). And he was a killer of prostitutes.

[Fisherman]

I am not sure what belonging to a Trades Union has to do with it?

He would not be a teamster, that is a union based in the USA and has not connection to the UK.. it's a minor point but important none the less.
it is likely neither occupation would have been in a trades union in 1888.

Steve

That is a bit evasive, though, is it not? I am saying that he would have been sorted in under the same flag as the teamsters if an American was to do the sorting, and that IS of interest because it would tell us that the jobs were related.

[Elamarna]

The last time you claimed that you normally don´t engage in Lechmere threads you had it pointed out to you that it was very odd how you are logged for myriads of posts on the topic anyway.

A reality check, perhaps?

I am not disingenuous and not ill informed, for the record. You quote how a Swedish politician was criticised for comparing the holocaust to the Mediterranean situation with refugees, and if anything, that should tell you that people in high office are quite prepared to use the holocaust in comparisons, just like I did. It was not how she used it so much as how political opponents thought the analogy was unfair that caused the humdrum.

Sweden was neutral in WWII, and we do not have the open wounds that the participating countries have. We are therefore quite prepared to see the issue from a more academical and less feeling-based point of view.

So much for being ill-informed, Kattrup. When you don´t even know which threads you have posted on, you may wish to avoid to discuss that particular issue.

It's not really about the countries involved,
Its about showing a modicum of respect to the innocent who suffered, not because of nationality but because of race and religion.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

He was around twentyfour, Abby.

interesting-isn't that about the age studies have found serial killers get started?

[curious]

I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele.
If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill.
Peter Sutcliffe was also a trucker, who did not use his truck in his criminal activities. William Bonin was another such man.
It is how trucking as a profession seems to shape serialists for some reason.

Whether barges or trains can be seen as closer comparisons in the respect of hauling goods long distances than carmens carts is of no consequence in this context, as far as I can tell - it´s more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods.

But is it more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods -- or at least the long distances which allow for brooding and mulling?

Does trucking as a profession shape serialists or do serialists become truckers because of the opportunities? I believe that conundrum was discussed in the documentary.

Isn't it the long distances that contribute to the brooding, which then contributes to the violent behavior? Since the mental condition of the killer seems shaped by the isolation, then it suggests to me that long distances are a necessary contributing factor.

You say: "I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele."

But did a carman really have have a lot of time to brood about the surroundings during a workday in London? Wasn't his vehicle an open-air vehicle? In London, would he not be concentrating on navigating through traffic and interacting with other drivers -- even when waiting for his wagon to be unloaded?

As for driving their vehicles past etc. . . . would not anyone who walked around in Whitechapel be exposed to all the same conditions? How would a carman be more isolated and have more time for brooding?

You say: "If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill."

Yes, I mentioned that specifically and even threw in Tommy Lynn Sells as an example of a traveling, cross-country killer.

At this time, I don't see the correlation between a carman, who worked daily in London, and a truck driver.

curious

[Fisherman]

It's not really about the countries involved,
Its about showing a modicum of respect to the innocent who suffered, not because of nationality but because of race and religion.

Steve

I´m sure that´s correct, and I will of course keep away from any such comparison in the future. And I beleive I have already apologized if anybody was offended. It is an easy thing to comply with - like not using the word tactics in our exchanges, for example.

That too is about showing respect.

[Fisherman]

interesting-isn't that about the age studies have found serial killers get started?

So it is said, but I would not look upon it as definitive. Mary Bell was a lot younger, and there are a few serialists below twenty.

To me, the more important thing is that accepting that the 1873 victim was one of Jacks/The Torso killers, we can safely and finally rule out a lot of the suspects like Chapman, Bury, Kosminski etc.

[miss marple]

Apart from the absurdity of the comparison, you might as well compare an airline pilot with the driver of a tram. I cannot see the relevance of any person involved in transportation, with Whitechapel murders as the women were murdered in the street by a man on foot, apart from MK who was probably murdered in her room by a man she met outside at night. All in a fairly small area. The easier thing in the world was to go to the pub, pick up a woman, go to the street pick up a woman.

So driving a cart is irrevant to the murders. As I stated before carman went a to b pick up goods, waited while goods were put on cart. Carman were not removal men,that was a different job. Men would have loaded the cart, he might have had a list checking out the goods then dropped them off. Lateness or delay would mean a dock in pay. Back the the depot see to the horses. Where did the comical scene of Lechmere staggering under a weight of bloody meat come from. Nor did he drive his fast stallions around the country committing killings in far away counties for days at a time while on the job.

Miss Marple

[Elamarna]

That is a bit evasive, though, is it not? I am saying that he would have been sorted in under the same flag as the teamsters if an American was to do the sorting, and that IS of interest because it would tell us that the jobs were related.

Not at all. It seems your history of the Trades Union Movement is somewhat limited.

The union which covered many would have been The Transport and General workers union in the Uk. It covered many occupations.

To suggest that somehow because truckers would be in the equivalent UK Trades Union it establishes a connect is highly misleading.
The divisions in unions in the USA and the UK was and is very different, with different backgrounds.

Steve

[Fisherman]

curious: But is it more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods -- or at least the long distances which allow for brooding and mulling?

Yes it is. The goods has nothing to do with it at all. The brooding time, however, may well have. And the exposure to prostitutes and hitchhikers and runaways etc. In that context, the trucker of today is more exposed than perhaps any other professional - which is perfectly in line with how they sometimes turn serialists.

Does trucking as a profession shape serialists or do serialists become truckers because of the opportunities? I believe that conundrum was discussed in the documentary.

I think both exist. There was that trucker who tried to distance himself by living way out in the woods and who turned himself in when the pressure got too strong - he seems to me to have been overpowered by the urge.

Isn't it the long distances that contribute to the brooding, which then contributes to the violent behavior? Since the mental condition of the killer seems shaped by the isolation, then it suggests to me that long distances are a necessary contributing factor.

I agree - to an extent. I don´t think they are necessary, but I do think that they will increase the problem.

You say: "I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele."

But did a carman really have have a lot of time to brood about the surroundings during a workday in London? Wasn't his vehicle an open-air vehicle? In London, would he not be concentrating on navigating through traffic and interacting with other drivers -- even when waiting for his wagon to be unloaded?

Eh - truckers also need to turn the wheel every now and then and avoid to run into others. If they brood at night, what is to say that Lechmere did not do the same? it is the exposure that is important, at least to my mind.

As for driving their vehicles past etc. . . . would not anyone who walked around in Whitechapel be exposed to all the same conditions? How would a carman be more isolated and have more time for brooding?

See my previous answer to Steve.

You say: "If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill."

Yes, I mentioned that specifically and even threw in Tommy Lynn Sells as an example of a traveling, cross-country killer.

At this time, I don't see the correlation between a carman, who worked daily in London, and a truck driver.

I do, however. Very much so.

[Fisherman]

Not at all. It seems your history of the Trades Union Movement is somewhat limited.

The union which covered many would have been The Transport and General workers union in the Uk. It covered many occupations.

To suggest that somehow because truckers would be in the equivalent UK Trades Union it establishes a connect is highly misleading.
The divisions in unions in the USA and the UK was and is very different, with different backgrounds.

Steve

You are too fond of the phrase "misleading", Steve. And too little versed in what that means. To say that a bargeman is more connected to a trucker than a carman, now THAT is misleading. Both are related, but the bargeman less so.
Do you know what Pickfords do today, by the way? What the company developed into? Barging? Or lorry transportation?

Or did I mislead now?

[Sam Flynn]

As I read it (and maybe I was wrong) Christer could be saying that the same psychological conditions prevalent in long-haul truckers might also become prevalent in someone of Lechmere's profession... out late at night, in an unreal world peopled largely by the dregs of society, hauling bloodied sacks of meat around the east end

Did he work nights, though? I don't see that there'd have been much need for him, or his colleagues, to work overnight. Early starts, yes, but that's not quite the same thing.

Also, it still hasn't been proven that he regularly delivered meat, if at all. Even assuming he did, I doubt that it would have been in bloodied sacks; it's more likely that the animals had been slaughtered a few hours previously, so would have been well-drained, cut into joints, and possibly packed/boxed before the carmen came to pick up their consignments sometime later in the morning.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd would suggest that the 21st century equivalent of a 19th century London Carman would be White Van Man. Maybe CL murderous exploits were down to road rage?

LOL

Of course, Lechmere doesn't appear to have even reached the depot, never mind got into his vehicle, before he killed! If he had access to transport, and ran errands all over London, any self-respecting SK would surely have exploited the opportunity. Yet we don't we see any Ripper-like murders at all beyond the narrow confines of the Canonical Five murder sites. My conclusion from this is that Jack the Ripper was a local killer, operating on foot; if he'd been involved in a "mobile" profession, he'd surely have left his mark over a much wider area.