Deadly occupations and serial murder

[Elamarna]

What I have done is to point out that a carman was the equivalent of todays lorry drivers and long-haul truckers. They are both employed in the goods transporting business.

The problem is that there is no real comparison between the occupations, and while this has been pointed out, there is a no attempted as yet to counter that argument

And I have pointed out that there is an overwhelming possibility that Lechmere handled dead body parts from animals, meaning that he was subjected to a possible desensitation.

No all that as been shown is that there is a possibility so far unproven, that Lechmere may have transported meat. If so was it wrapped and so somewhat anonymous or openly exposed?
If just picking up joints of meat desensitized then as I said many would be in same situation.

And I am saying that he thus seems to have ties to the two only known professions that are tied to violent crime, serial killing included.

Unfortunately those ties appear to range from the weak to the non existent.

That, gentlemen, whether you like it or not, is relevant to the case, and I myself find it of great interest since it seems to put Lechmere professionwise in a category that displays violent crime in at least todays world.

It's not a question of liking or not. The correlation is just not there.
Wishful thinking does not make a case.

That is all I have said - and look at the reactions!

I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmereīs case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays worl of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned.

It is a real rot and it runs unforgivably deep here. Thank you, Abby, for disclosing it. I would not be able to do it myself, it took an outsiders voice to do it.

Not so my dear Fisherman. It shows that the majority of posters look at the details of any suggestion and do not just accept what is presented as being fact by the person proposing the suggestion.

Steve

[drstrange169]

>>Earlier today, I posted a link to a documentary from last year ...<<

Documentaries, sadly, are not a good basis for reseach. People in them tend to say whatever they feel might ptheirheier point rather than look unbaisly at a given issue.

This particular doco seems to be especially irelevant as it appears to deal with American truckies who travel greater distances than any UK drivers and are subject to greater isolation than UK drivers.

The article on slaughter houses is more interesting to this sites subject matter, jtr.

[drstrange169]

>>...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!<<

Since answers have the limitations of the original questions asked, it's hardly surprising;-)


>>One of the points made in the docu ...<<

How did you verify the accuracy of the "points" made in the docu?
Aren't you a journalist? Isn't it the basic rule to check before accepting any information?


>>The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu ...<<

Have you seen the Broad Street/Pickford records for 1888? Do you believe the "historian from the docu." saw the Broad Street/Pickford records for 1888?
(The question is rhetorical, I already know the answer.)


>>... and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts. <<

Wow! Enough said;-)


>>It is probably just another coincidence, eh?<<

No just another manufactured claim, with "facts" pulled from popular media, with no serious research to support them.

[drstrange169]

>>That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime...<<

Only two occupartions have ties to violent crime?

[drstrange169]

Hello Abby,


>>The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.<<

Knee jerk reaction? Doco's are not legit (in serious reseach terms) or relevant in this particular case.

Serious research is worth digesting always, nothing I've read to date in this thread from Fish has been edible;-)

[drstrange169]

"Documentaries, sadly, are not a good basis for reseach. People in them tend to say whatever they feel might ptheirheier point rather than look unbaisly at a given issue. "

"ptheirheier" = promote their :-(

[John G]

Before I go - you identify three parts as crucial to the lorry driver/serialist:
"absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances."

We know that many serialists have families.

It seems the Torso killer - who was the same man as the Ripper to my mind - had access to a private space.

The distances the Torso man travelled were quite enough to allow for anonymous dumping with no other clue than that he was a Londoner.

If you have seen the docu, you will have noted that they have another list of factors:

The possibility to dump bodies away from home.
The secluded and soundproof locality offered by the lorry.
The many hours spent alone, offering time to brood on matters.

I never said that Lechmere was the exact copy of a long-haul trucker - I said he was his dayīs equivalent; a man working with the transportation of goods by a loading vehicle.

Not did I say that he was a butcher - my contention is that he did not need to be in order to be desensitised by handling dead animal parts. And it seems he did just that. It is not the anatomical knowledge I am after here, since I am fairly certain about where the killer got that.

Yes, I absolutely agree that Torso Man probably fits this theory. In fact, he might well have had access to a boat, which fits in with Steve's assertion that a barge man would be a nineteenth century equivalent of a modern day trucker.

However, as I've noted before, on that basis alone I cannot see that Lechmere was Torso Man, i.e. no evidence he had access to either a boat or a private space.

[John G]

Lo and behold - one poster gets it right.

I have not said anything at all about what weight I put on these matters.

I have not said that it strengthens the case against Lechmere.

But that does not stop what Abby calls the normal knee-jerk reaction; I am "desperate", I am making impossible comparisons etcetera.

What I have done is to point out that a carman was the equivalent of todays lorry drivers and long-haul truckers. They are both employed in the goods transporting business.

And I have pointed out that there is an overwhelming possibility that Lechmere handled dead body parts from animals, meaning that he was subjected to a possible desensitation.

And I am saying that he thus seems to have ties to the two only known professions that are tied to violent crime, serial killing included.

That, gentlemen, whether you like it or not, is relevant to the case, and I myself find it of great interest since it seems to put Lechmere professionwise in a category that displays violent crime in at least todays world.

That is all I have said - and look at the reactions!

I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmereīs case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays world of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned.

It is a real rot and it runs unforgivably deep here. Thank you, Abby, for disclosing it. I would not be able to do it myself, it took an outsiders voice to do it.

I certainly find this a fascinating subject and well worth discussing. However, wouldn't William Bury better fit the theory? After all, he also had a job which involved driving a pony and cart. And as he was self employed he could be more flexible. And isn't there evidence he also trained as a butcher?

Or what about Louis Diemshutz? He also drive a pony and cart and discovered a dead body-one of the C5? Not that I think he was JtR, either, but it serves to illustrate how easy it is to make certain connections.

[drstrange169]

Not that I think, Deimshitz is the killer, but if you build a case on coincidences and "circumstantial" evidence, Loius and Co, kills the Lechmere case everytime.

Police record, connection to the crime scenes, access to a cart, self employed and therefore free any time to kill, in dispute with police, genuine "blood evidence", questionable timings, known to be violent, potential motive, wife handles meat, etc. etc.

[miss marple]

The carman 's job was to look after the horses and drive to collect or deliver goods. They did not load the van, that was not their job, they had to wait around for the goods. Then at delivery point the good were removed but not by the carman.
Pickfords was and is also a funiture removing business. Lechmere probably transported a variety of goods but would have had no personal interest in them. His job was to get safely from a to b without too much delay and then get to another job. Delays cost money. Any meat would be wrapped in cloths or sacks. The job was pretty much proscribed.

Miss Marple

[Elamarna]

Morning all,

Having slept on this overnight a few more observations to make.

We have been asked to comment on a documentary which links certain occupations to serial killers, and some observations and views Christer says he has pointed out which may have similarities to Lechmere.
The overall response has been that the information in the Documentary is interesting; but that most fail to see the points Christer points out, has being either similar or significant.

Christer responds by saying :

"I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmereīs case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays world of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned."


The issue of course is that this documentary is a subjective programme made by a production company to sell to Broadcasters. And as such the information it quotes cannot just be accepted at face value, without being checked first.

Which brings as to a very relevant example - The Missing Evidence documentary. This makes some truly remarkable claims and if taken at face value would suggest there are overwhelming established historical facts pointing in only one direction and the case is all but closed. Of course we know those "facts" are not established historical facts at all, but largely speculation and the case is far from closed. However that is only because the information given in the Documentary has been checked and challenged.
Such needs to be done with this information Christer has found and pointed out to us.

However we can also look at the issues Christer points out. Are Truckers the modern equivalent of 19th century Carmen?

Is the act of simply picking up joints of meat likely to desensitized you?

I await the research paper that demonstrates that shopping for meat can lead to desensitization.

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd would suggest that the 21st century equivalent of a 19th century London Carman would be White Van Man.

Maybe CL murderous exploits were down to road rage?

Regards

Herlock

[John G]

Morning all,

Having slept on this overnight a few more observations to make.

We have been asked to comment on a documentary which links certain occupations to serial killers, and some observations and views Christer says he has pointed out which may have similarities to Lechmere.
The overall response has been that the information in the Documentary is interesting; but that most fail to see the points Christer points out, has being either similar or significant.

Christer responds by saying :

"I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmereīs case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays world of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned."


The issue of course is that this documentary is a subjective programme made by a production company to sell to Broadcasters. And as such the information it quotes cannot just be accepted at face value, without being checked first.

Which brings as to a very relevant example - The Missing Evidence documentary. This makes some truly remarkable claims and if taken at face value would suggest there are overwhelming established historical facts pointing in only one direction and the case is all but closed. Of course we know those "facts" are not established historical facts at all, but largely speculation and the case is far from closed. However that is only because the information given in the Documentary has been checked and challenged.
Such needs to be done with this information Christer has found and pointed out to us.

However we can also look at the issues Christer points out. Are Truckers the modern equivalent of 19th century Carmen?

Is the act of simply picking up joints of meat likely to desensitized you?

I await the research paper that demonstrates that shopping for meat can lead to desensitization.

Steve

And there lies the problem. As s matter of common sense an eighteenth century horse and cart doesn't remotely resemble a twenty-first century lorry. As a comparison of modes of transport you might just as well compare a cart horse with a SUV.

And, as you note, If simply being in contact with meat results in desensitization, then anyone who isn't a vegetarian must be at a heightened risk of becoming a serial killer.

[Fisherman]

A few observations.

Henry Flower tells me that there was no animosity at all involved in the posts that arrived initially, but for Simons post.

And still they had Abby Normal react and speak about a knee-jerk reaction...?

I agree to a large degree - the normal outcome of proposing anything at all that may point to guilt on the carmans behalf is a knee-jerk "no!".

However, since I think Henry Flower is a balanced and clever man, I will accept that I may have overreacted to a degree.

Ever since the Lechmere theory was first presented by me and Edward Stow some five years ago, posters have asked why there is such an animosity towards the Lechmere theory. Normally, they are silenced by a flat denial that this is so.

One of the first reactions we had was from a very well established poster who accused us of having lined our own pockets with the money of the suffering descendants of victims of the Bethnal Green tube disaster, by having taken a small admission to the lecture we made in St Johns Church back then. It was said to be deeply immoral and it was added that we were being unforgivably cynical for not caring about the Lechmere descendants who would be distraught by our falsities.

Of course, the admission money went into the work of the Stairway to Heaven Foundation, funding a memorial for the tube victims, and of course we had contacted the Lechmeres well ahead of presenting out theory, and we had been told that they had no problems with it.

This was never asked of us. Instead it was predisposed that we were moneyhungry bastards with no conscience.

When the docu was presented, it was implied that the experts of it had been mislead and lied to. Much as it is good to keep a watchful ear towards the ground, one can actually take a less inflammable stance. But this was not done; it was par for the course to claim that the experts must have been lied to.

Things like these tend to colour my take on the criticism that is directed towards the theory and the unwillingness to take the simplest of matters on board, if they point to the carman.

If it had been found out that a certain brand of cigarette was prone to turn people to sereial killers, and that Kosminski smoked that particular brand, I have little doubt that it would be called a breakthrough and the Kosminskiytes would be congratulated.

When I say that Lechmere has ties to the two occupations that are tied to violent crime, it is rejected, knee-jerk fashion.

Gareth says that the equivalent of the 20th and 21st century truckers were the victorian train workers. In a sense, he has a point - they hauled goods for long distances.
But would prostitutes work the trainyards? Would train drivers troll the rails, looking for women? Would they stop and pick up hitchhikers? Would they stop the train and sneak into houses, like Adam Leroy, only to then return to the train and sneak off? Could they take women into the trains and tie them up there, unseen by the ones tending to the steam engine fire?

I think not. And these are the points that we should address, since hauling goods long stretches is not interesting if it is not combined with the opportunitites to kill.

It is another matter that people working on trains are probably a category that is of interest in this matter anyway; they are transient, and they can spread a series of murders in a manner that makes them hard to discern. Other categories of interest will be travelling salesmen and people travelling and doing small works. The key is how these people are alone, they rule their own time, they are exposed to prostitution and hitchhikers (save the train personnel).

So we should take our eye of the term long-haul truckers and instead look at people working in the transportation sector, regardless if the stretch is long or short and regardless of what commodity they transport.

Dusty makes the point (seconded by Steve) that documentaries are notoriously untrustworthy or something such, and that may be correct. I can identify other sources that are much nore untrustworthy, like a number of posters out here.

Be that as it may, I am asked if I have checked the information, and yes, I have. The docu was factually based on FBI material from 2009 that can be accessed here:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2009/april/highwayserial_040609

If anything, the numbers are conservative in the docu. There is later material that speaks not of 500 unsolved freeway murders and 200 trucker suspects, but instead of 750 murders and 450 such suspects.

As could be expected, I am asked whether people risk getting desensitized by buying a pork chop. I would not propose to know the exact answer to that question (but I can say that my daughter will not eat meat with bones and sinews visible, since it makes her think of dead animals), but I think Lechmere was involved in hauling a lot of meat at Pickfords, and that it involved large chunks and parts of animals. And I donīt think you need to handle it to become desensitized - it is the realization of how a living creature can be chopped into parts that lies behind this, as far as I understand, and not only the actual butchering. A far-fetched comparison is how the people in concentration camps in many instances have said that the dead people they rolled around in wheel barrels, stacked upon each other like dried branches of trees, became objects to them instead of real people.
That is what happens when you are exposed to such matters over a period of time - it looses itīs real context and is objectified. This is also why people in 1940:s movies put a hand to their stomachs and fell gracefully to the ground saying "Aargh" when they were shot. Today, we have scenes where the bellies are cut open, the intestines welling out and blood pouring down the bdies of people who depserately hold on to their innards before they die by having half of their heads blown away by a shotgun, all graphically described.
Desensitation. Objectification. It would never have passed before the 1990s, and it only does so because we have been slowly numbed by increasing amounts of violence in other films.

The docu on trucker killers is also conservative when it comes to identifying what it is that makes truckers serialists. It is speculated about a few things, but nothing is thrown forward as the determining factor. It seems, however, that there IS such a factor, and I would propose that a number of the serialists have actively sought out the trade on account of how they would be able to exploit it for their purposes.

Travelling the streets and roads alone, being exposed to prostitution, having the option to cage women and then to dump them - to me, that closely resembles the options open to Lechmere in the role of the Ripper/Torso killer.

He is tied to the transport business, he was the trucker of his age and he in all probability hauled huge dead parts of animals on an everyday basis.

If that is of no interest to anybody but me and Abby, then so be it.

[Elamarna]

A few observations.

Henry Flower tells me that there was no animosity at all involved in the posts that arrived initially, but for Simons post.

And still they had Abby Normal react and speak about a knee-jerk reaction...?

I agree to a large degree - the normal outcome of proposing anything at all that may point to guilt on the carmans behalf is a knee-jerk "no!".

However, since I think Henry Flower is a balanced and clever man, I will accept that I may have overreacted to a degree.

Ever since the Lechmere theory was first presented by me and Edward Stow some five years ago, posters have asked why there is such an animosity towards the Lechmere theory. Normally, they are silenced by a flat denial that this is so.

One of the first reactions we had was from a very well established poster who accused us of having lined our own pockets with the money of the suffering descendants of victims of the Bethnal Green tube disaster, by having taken a small admission to the lecture we made in St Johns Church back then. It was said to be deeply immoral and it was added that we were being unforgivably cynical for not caring about the Lechmere descendants who would be distraught by our falsities.

Of course, the admission money went into the work of the Stairway to Heaven Foundation, funding a memorial for the tube victims, and of course we had contacted the Lechmeres well ahead of presenting out theory, and we had been told that they had no problems with it.

This was never asked of us. Instead it was predisposed that we were moneyhungry bastards with no conscience.

When the docu was presented, it was implied that the experts of it had been mislead and lied to. Much as it is good to keep a watchful ear towards the ground, one can actually take a less inflammable stance. But this was not done; it was par for the course to claim that the experts must have been lied to.

Things like these tend to colour my take on the criticism that is directed towards the theory and the unwillingness to take the simplest of matters on board, if they point to the carman.

If it had been found out that a certain brand of cigarette was prone to turn people to sereial killers, and that Kosminski smoked that particular brand, I have little doubt that it would be called a breakthrough and the Kosminskiytes would be congratulated.

When I say that Lechmere has ties to the two occupations that are tied to violent crime, it is rejected, knee-jerk fashion.

Gareth says that the equivalent of the 20th and 21st century truckers were the victorian train workers. In a sense, he has a point - they hauled goods for long distances.
But would prostitutes work the trainyards? Would train drivers troll the rails, looking for women? Would they stop and pick up hitchhikers? Would they stop the train and sneak into houses, like Adam Leroy, only to then return to the train and sneak off? Could they take women into the trains and tie them up there, unseen by the ones tending to the steam engine fire?

I think not. And these are the points that we should address, since hauling goods long stretches is not interesting if it is not combined with the opportunitites to kill.

It is another matter that people working on trains are probably a category that is of interest in this matter anyway; they are transient, and they can spread a series of murders in a manner that makes them hard to discern. Other categories of interest will be travelling salesmen and people travelling and doing small works. The key is how these people are alone, they rule their own time, they are exposed to prostitution and hitchhikers (save the train personnel).

So we should take our eye of the term long-haul truckers and instead look at people working in the transportation sector, regardless if the stretch is long or short and regardless of what commodity they transport.

Dusty makes the point (seconded by Steve) that documentaries are notoriously untrustworthy or something such, and that may be correct. I can identify other sources that are much nore untrustworthy, like a number of posters out here.

Be that as it may, I am asked if I have checked the information, and yes, I have. The docu was factually based on FBI material from 2009 that can be accessed here:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2009/april/highwayserial_040609

If anything, the numbers are conservative in the docu. There is later material that speaks not of 500 unsolved freeway murders and 200 trucker suspects, but instead of 750 murders and 450 such suspects.

As could be expected, I am asked whether people risk getting desensitized by buying a pork chop. I would not propose to know the exact answer to that question (but I can say that my daughter will not eat meat with bones and sinews visible, since it makes her think of dead animals), but I think Lechmere was involved in hauling a lot of meat at Pickfords, and that it involved large chunks and parts of animals. And I donīt think you need to handle it to become desensitized - it is the realization of how a living creature can be chopped into parts that lies behind this, as far as I understand, and not only the actual butchering. A far-fetched comparison is how the people in concentration camps in many instances have said that the dead people they rolled around in wheel barrels, stacked upon each other like dried branches of trees, became objects to them instead of real people.
That is what happens when you are exposed to such matters over a period of time - it looses itīs real context and is objectified. This is also why people in 1940:s movies put a hand to their stomachs and fell gracefully to the ground saying "Aargh" when they were shot. Today, we have scenes where the bellies are cut open, the intestines welling out and blood pouring down the bdies of people who depserately hold on to their innards before they die by having half of their heads blown away by a shotgun, all graphically described.
Desensitation. Objectification. It would never have passed before the 1990s, and it only does so because we have been slowly numbed by increasing amounts of violence in other films.

The docu on trucker killers is also conservative when it comes to identifying what it is that makes truckers serialists. It is speculated about a few things, but nothing is thrown forward as the determining factor. It seems, however, that there IS such a factor, and I would propose that a number of the serialists have actively sought out the trade on account of how they would be able to exploit it for their purposes.

Travelling the streets and roads alone, being exposed to prostitution, having the option to cage women and then to dump them - to me, that closely resembles the options open to Lechmere in the role of the Ripper/Torso killer.

He is tied to the transport business, he was the trucker of his age and he in all probability hauled huge dead parts of animals on an everyday basis.

If that is of no interest to anybody but me and Abby, then so be it.

Your comparison on desensitization is indeed far fetched, and some, not I because I understand the point you are trying to make, may find it offensive.
I say this based on my time as an elected local authority councillor in Barnet, some people take great offence at any mention of the camps, and it really not a dig at you just a general comment.


The actual data looks interesting I think several of us agree on that.
Views have been given on the comparisons, you don't agree , no problem.


Steve