Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[Wickerman]

Yes, Trevor. Anderson may have been wrong about the asylum timing, which means Kosminski may have gone in after the identification, not before. In other words, not declared insane prior to the ID.

......or so it seems

It appears he was only certified insane on the 6th Feb. and by one of their own doctors, Edmund Houchin, police Surgeon for H division.

[Scott Nelson]

If Kosminski was in an asylum it is unlikley that the doctors would have allowed him to be removed for the purpose of taking part in an ID parade.

Yes, Trevor. Anderson may have been wrong about the asylum timing, which means Kosminski may have gone in after the identification, not before. In other words, not declared insane prior to the ID.

......or so it seems

[Scott Nelson]

Yes of course, Jon. I forgot about the Cox surveillance. I just went by Swanson's account of the surveillance being a "short time" -- however long that may have been. And who knows if Sagar's man is the same as Cox's. Or Swanson's for that matter.

[Wickerman]

Consider that the city police would have been watching him by day and night between return from the ID and being sent again to the workhouse. Six or seven months is a long time for 24-hour surveillance on a person.

I see your point but do you recall Henry Cox's account?, he claims to have been on surveillance for nearly three months. Cox does not emphasize his duty was exceptionally long or unusual.

[Trevor Marriott]

Agreed Scott

And wouldn't someone from the press have got wind of it over that length of time especially with the manpower of a 24 hr surveillance over 6 mths. With the different officers involved word might have got out.

My opinion for what it is worth is that things happened very quickly indeed with Kosminski which may explain some of the discrepancies. Anderson - Id After Kosminski was in an asylum. Swanson - Before etc
Regards Darryl

If Kosminski was in an asylum it is unlikley that the doctors would have allowed him to be removed for the purpose of taking part in an ID parade.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Scott Nelson]

Setting aside the brief historical narrative for Aaron Kosminski, I'd say the Sagar/Butcher's Row story, if it involved a "Kosminski", may have fit Swanson's story a bit better.

[Scott Nelson]

My opinion for what it is worth is that things happened very quickly indeed with Kosminski which may explain some of the discrepancies. Anderson - Id After Kosminski was in an asylum. Swanson - Before etc

I'd recommend John Malcolm's book The Whitechapel Murders of 1888 -- Another Dead End? for a detailed analysis of the various conundrums surrounding the Anderson/Swanson suspect.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Personally, I think from an evidential aspect, they are unsafe to totally rely on they both contain flaws.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

From the other side I’d say that they cannot and should not simply be dismissed just because there are flaws.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Consider that the city police would have been watching him by day and night between return from the ID and being sent again to the workhouse. Six or seven months is a long time for 24-hour surveillance on a person.

Agreed Scott

And wouldn't someone from the press have got wind of it over that length of time especially with the manpower of a 24 hr surveillance over 6 mths. With the different officers involved word might have got out.

My opinion for what it is worth is that things happened very quickly indeed with Kosminski which may explain some of the discrepancies. Anderson - Id After Kosminski was in an asylum. Swanson - Before etc
Regards Darryl

[Scott Nelson]

I'm not seeing how "a very short time" can mean "a few days". It seems to refer to the time between July 15, 1890 and Feb. 4, 1891 which is about ten days short of seven months.

Consider that the city police would have been watching him by day and night between return from the ID and being sent again to the workhouse. Six or seven months is a long time for 24-hour surveillance on a person.

[Trevor Marriott]

The Marginalia isn't as reliable a document as Mac's Memorandum, in my view.

Personally, I think from an evidential aspect, they are unsafe to totally rely on they both contain flaws.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

An official document should contain the full facts behind what was written.

I call it an official document to distinguish it from Memoirs, which are not official.
That distinction does not imply there will be no errors, but we must be careful in attributing what Mac. wrote in his memoirs (unofficial) from what he wrote in the Memorandum (official).
Official documents can & do contain errors Trevor regardless of the expectation of clear facts.

All the MM does is highlight who he belived to have been the killer other than Cutbush nothing more.

I'm not so sure that is even true. I don't see personal belief in his choices, especially when he wrote:

"A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide (Druitt?), or, as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was by them confined in some asylum (Kozminski?).

Followed by:

"I may mention the cases of 3 men, any one of whom would have been more likely than Cutbush to have committed this series of murders."

Where we get his personal beliefs is from his Memoirs (1914), thats where we read:

"....the Whitechapel murderer, in all probability, put an end to himself soon after the Dorset Street affair in November i888, certain facts, pointing to this conclusion, were not in possession of the police till some years after I became a detective officer."

And:

"....and the probability is that, after his awful glut on this occasion, his brain gave way altogether and he committed suicide."

And:

"....The man, of course, was a sexual maniac..."

The question is was there ever an ID parade for him to dismiss ?

If there was, the outcome was not as conclusive as we have been led to believe via the Marginalia. But I don't think Swanson was offering his opinion. In my view he was explaining who his old boss Anderson believed was the killer.

The Id parade as set out in the Marginalia is a game changer as it reads but when you dig deeper into what is written it raises more questions than answers.

Right, faulty recollections. There may have been a number of I.D.'s, we read one involving Violenia & Pizer, there must have been others. Swanson has confused locations & parties involved.
The Marginalia isn't as reliable a document as Mac's Memorandum, in my view.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It is easy to forget how easy it is to walk about London. I've walked from the city into Whitechapel many a time. It is not like he was living out in the suburbs.

Exactly Tristan. Druitt was young and fit too.

[Losmandris]

This isn’t a response to this post George but the subject of whether there was any proof of Druitt ever being the the East End which I believe you raised in an earlier post. This is a fuller response.

Firstly I’d say that we would have to remember the practice of ‘slumming’, for example. Well-to-do men often went into the East End to sample the pleasures but I’d say that it would be a given that if you’d searched any of their records you would have found no evidence for these sojourns, so I don’t really see any problem or any surprise that we can find no record of Druitt being in Whitechapel 133 years ago. Why would we expect to see a record of this? I’m certain that The Ten Bells didn’t get their patrons to sign a Visitors Book.

Then I’d mention April 1886 when Conservative MP JG Talbot held a meeting at Kings Bench Walk, where Druitt had his chambers, to try to recruit Barristers (especially former Oxford University men like Druitt) to join the mission at Oxford House which was in Bethnal Green. It was a place where the well-off could live (so there were living quarters of some kind) and do charitable work amongst the poor. Do we have proof that Druitt joined? No we don’t. But he was exactly the kind of person wanted for this work and it’s also worth remembering that Druitt’s sister Georgiana (who eventually also committed suicide) was married to the Reverend William Hough and together they ran the Corpus Christi Mission on the Old Kent Road.

Of course this isn’t proof that Druitt was ever in Whitechapel but I’ve never understood why some find this objectionable? Why would he have left evidence of visits to a slum? Whitechapel was within easy walking distance so there’s no geographical objections and it’s entirely possible and plausible that he did charitable work for Oxford House.

It is easy to forget how easy it is to walk about London. I've walked from the city into Whitechapel many a time. It is not like he was living out in the suburbs.

[Trevor Marriott]

Correct Darryl, but don't forget Macnaghten was writing an official document in 1894 while he was still on the force. In my opinion he clearly dismisses any notion of an I.D. concluding in anyone's guilt..

An official document should contain the full facts behind what was written. All the MM does is highlight who he belived to have been the killer other than Cutbush nothing more.

The question is was there ever an ID parade for him to dismiss ?

The Id parade as set out in the Marginalia is a game changer as it reads but when you dig deeper into what is written it raises more questions than answers.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk