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  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Daily News 3 Sept;
    "The husband visited the mortuary, and on viewing the corpse, identified it as that of his wife, from whom he had been separated eight years. He stated that she was nearly 44 years of age, but it must be owned that she looked nearly ten years younger, as indeed the police at first described the body."
    True Joshua, but that may be due to a different cause. My wife always talks about sleeping on your back is better for the skin, it lessens the wrinkles. So her body lain on it's back would look facially different. A similar comment was made with Stride too when her body was in the mortuary.

    I can't speak for the lighting in a mortuary, but the point of this exchange was that in general gaslight being a softer light than daylight hides the wrinkles, for both men & women.
    Gaslight makes people look younger, all the witnesses who discovered the bodies of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes & Stride, estimated these women as looking younger than they actually were.

    Kelly was different as her discovers knew her, they had an idea how old she was.

    The point being, as this is a general rule for the human face, regardless of gender, any 23 year old suspect seen in gaslight is more likely to have looked younger (like a teenager?), not older (like, middle-aged).
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      That wasn’t what I meant DM. All I meant was that if anyone had looked into to Druitt just after the memorandum there would have been far more chance of them finding information to eliminate him (if it existed) than someone like Kosminski. Because of Druitt’s station in life he’d have been far more likely to have left some kind of trail. Minutes of a meeting, guest list at a party, court appearance miles away etc. So Druitt was a risky choice if he was just picked at random as some suggest.
      Isnt it a fact that there is no corroboration to the entry regarding Druitt in the memo, and nothing in any other police files to make him a suspect, In fact I belive Abberline did rule him out but I cant find that newspaper report

      So what we have is a document penned by MM setting out his own personal belief as to who the killer was based on what would appear to be nothing more than hearsay as far as Druitt is concerned.

      As to the memo itself at the risk of being shot down in flames I will say yet again in my opinion is it unsafe to totally rely on.

      If Kosminski was such a prime suspect in the first edition of the memo then why is his full name not disclosed
      But in the second edition his full name is still not disclosed but wait MM then exonarates the Kosminki mentioned in the first edition

      Further more staying with Kosminski if we are to believe the Swanson marginalia, this man Kosminski is still a suspect and is purportedy identified in what can only be described as a Mythical ID parade.

      Now given MM was Swansons immediate superior in neither of the editions of the Memo does he mention this ID parade and the identification of Kosminski an important part that many researchers seek to heavily rely on in propping up Kosminski as a suspect.

      If this ID parade had have taken place the word of its outcome would have spread like wildfire around Scotland Yard,Yet we do not see anyone else other than Anderson who makes a vague reference to it.

      So what are we left with two unsafe editions of the MM
      A question mark surrounding the Mythical ID parade
      And a person of interest with a surname of Kosminki who may not even have been Aaron Kosminski

      The old accpeted facts are creaking near to breaking point

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

        Isnt it a fact that there is no corroboration to the entry regarding Druitt in the memo, and nothing in any other police files to make him a suspect, In fact I belive Abberline did rule him out but I cant find that newspaper report

        So what we have is a document penned by MM setting out his own personal belief as to who the killer was based on what would appear to be nothing more than hearsay as far as Druitt is concerned.

        As to the memo itself at the risk of being shot down in flames I will say yet again in my opinion is it unsafe to totally rely on.

        If Kosminski was such a prime suspect in the first edition of the memo then why is his full name not disclosed
        But in the second edition his full name is still not disclosed but wait MM then exonarates the Kosminki mentioned in the first edition

        Further more staying with Kosminski if we are to believe the Swanson marginalia, this man Kosminski is still a suspect and is purportedy identified in what can only be described as a Mythical ID parade.

        Now given MM was Swansons immediate superior in neither of the editions of the Memo does he mention this ID parade and the identification of Kosminski an important part that many researchers seek to heavily rely on in propping up Kosminski as a suspect.

        If this ID parade had have taken place the word of its outcome would have spread like wildfire around Scotland Yard,Yet we do not see anyone else other than Anderson who makes a vague reference to it.

        So what are we left with two unsafe editions of the MM
        A question mark surrounding the Mythical ID parade
        And a person of interest with a surname of Kosminki who may not even have been Aaron Kosminski

        The old accpeted facts are creaking near to breaking point

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
        Why do I have to keep repeating this….I’m not stating that its a fact that Druitt was the ripper so I’m not ‘relying’ on anything. The fact is that the MM exists. It’s real, it isn’t a forgery. So we mention it/quote it/refer to it, with judgment. So no one is totally relying on anything.

        So we have

        1. Mac was correct and Druitt was the ripper
        or
        2. Mac was given faulty information and Druitt wasn’t the ripper.
        or
        3. Mac was given what appeared to be strong evidence but Druitt still wasn’t guilty.
        or
        4. Mac just plucked Druitt’s name out of thin air.

        My personal opinion is that number 2 is unlikely as Mac mentions Druitt’s family as the original source of the info via a third party so I’d have thought it unlikely that a family would deliberately try and fit up one of their own as the ripper.

        I also think that 4 is unlikely. We have no reason to suspect Mac of lying and if he’d wanted to implicate an innocent man Druitt is just about the last person I could see him choosing.

        So, for me, that leaves 1 and 3 and I don’t think that MacNaghten was an idiot.

        Ive absolutely no qualms in saying that Druitt might have been the ripper. All that’s raised against him as a candidate is the “well there’s no evidence against him.” Ditto all other suspects. None are better than Druitt. He is, and will remain, a suspect until someone disproves him with evidence and not just bias.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes



        "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

        ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          So we have

          1. Mac was correct, and Druitt was the ripper
          or
          2. Mac was given faulty information and Druitt wasn’t the ripper.
          or
          3. Mac was given what appeared to be strong evidence but Druitt still wasn’t guilty.
          or
          4. Mac just plucked Druitt’s name out of thin air.
          I'll take number 3, please.

          What may have seemed "strong" evidence of the time might not be so by current standards, and I would believe it would be based around his so-called 'sexual insanity'. Many interpret that as being gay, but I think we must also consider that it covers quite a broad range of things by Victorian standards. None of which make him a serial killer. There is no geographical proof MJD spent any time in Whitechapel, and then we have the cricket stuff.
          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

            I'll take number 3, please.

            What may have seemed "strong" evidence of the time might not be so by current standards, and I would believe it would be based around his so-called 'sexual insanity'. Many interpret that as being gay, but I think we must also consider that it covers quite a broad range of things by Victorian standards. None of which make him a serial killer. There is no geographical proof MJD spent any time in Whitechapel, and then we have the cricket stuff.
            Number 3 is a possible.

            There is no cricket stuff though Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

            It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.
            Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 07-21-2021, 04:42 PM.
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes



            "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

            ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              Daily News 3 Sept;
              "The husband visited the mortuary, and on viewing the corpse, identified it as that of his wife, from whom he had been separated eight years. He stated that she was nearly 44 years of age, but it must be owned that she looked nearly ten years younger, as indeed the police at first described the body."
              Thanks Joshua!

              That's the one!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                There is no cricket stuff Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

                It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.
                By the charitable organisation, are you referring to Toynbee Hall?

                Although it wouldn't mean that he was JTR, I've often thought that if it could be confirmed that Druitt had volunteered there like many of his peers, it would at least place him in Whitechapel and potentially give him a good working knowledge of the streets.

                That would put him ahead of Koz by a nose in my book.

                Comment


                • .
                  So what we have is a document penned by MM setting out his own personal belief as to who the killer was based on what would appear to be nothing more than hearsay as far as Druitt is concerned
                  I don’t see how you can label something as hearsay when we don’t actually know the form that MacNaghten’s private info came in. For all that we know his brother William could have shown Mac a bag containing a bloodied knife and body parts. He could have shown him a note where Druitt confessed. We just don’t know and because we don’t know we can’t dismiss it as hearsay. It’s an unknown but it’s an unknown that appears to have convinced Sir Melville that Monty was the man.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes



                  "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                  ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                    By the charitable organisation, are you referring to Toynbee Hall?

                    Although it wouldn't mean that he was JTR, I've often thought that if it could be confirmed that Druitt had volunteered there like many of his peers, it would at least place him in Whitechapel and potentially give him a good working knowledge of the streets.

                    That would put him ahead of Koz by a nose in my book.
                    No Ms D it was something else mentioned in Jon Hainsworth’s book which I don’t have with me at the moment because I’m on holiday. I’m back tomorrow though and Jon’s updated book should be lying on the mat. I think it was Oxford House. They held a meeting at Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk to recruit former university men to do charitable work amongst the poor in the East End. Of course we have no way of knowing if Monty actually took part but it’s a real possibility.

                    I’d never say that it’s game over Druitt was the ripper but I feel that he’s far to easily dismissed by some these days. It’s almost as if he’s become an old-fashioned suspect. So I have no problem flying the flag and taking the flak I just wish that some could view the matter without bias though and that they would stop giving out opinions as facts. Very few suspects can be categorically dismissed however we rate them.
                    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 07-21-2021, 05:09 PM.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                    ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      ...an unknown that appears to have convinced Sir Melville that Monty was the man.
                      Not quite. The memo lists him along with Ostorg and Kozminski. So not quite "the man". One of three men. The family thing, especially a well-to-do family like his, would already have had shame brought upon them from his suicide, the incident of the school and his 'sexual insanity'. It would not require much more for one or two of them to make such speculative connections themselves. As we do not know what that evidence is, it certainly was not strong enough for Mac to put his whole reputation on the line by sticking to his one best suspect only. Why bother with Ostorg and Koz at all?

                      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        Number 3 is a possible.

                        There is no cricket stuff though Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

                        It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.
                        Simply not cricket eh?

                        I believe there was a suggestion he was on a cricket tour at the end of August in Bournemouth, which means he would have had to have played cricket in Dorset in the day and kill Polly Nichols in Whitechapel late at night?

                        He also played a match a few hours after the murder of Annie Chapman. The argument is he suffered a multiple personality disorder? The murderer was not schizophrenic as the murders were not frenzied bouts of psychosis. The kills were methodical and done quite clinically. The mutilations were altogether something different. The murderer Ian Bailey (convicted as such in France, so no legal issues there) went to visit a communal swim in the sea the day after he murdered Sophie du Plantier. That level of psychopathy is completely achievable by a malignant and narcissistic psychopath. I just don't see MJD as that. He was depressed and ashamed - my guess is issues surrounding his sexuality and what happened at the school drove him to suicide and for the family to say what they said.

                        Toynbee Hall was also patronised by Michael Maybrick and many other well-to-do artists and celebrities of the day. Do we consider them as suspects too?
                        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          No Ms D it was something else mentioned in Jon Hainsworth’s book which I don’t have with me at the moment because I’m on holiday. I’m back tomorrow though and Jon’s updated book should be lying on the mat. I think it was Oxford House. They held a meeting at Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk to recruit former university men to do charitable work amongst the poor in the East End. Of course we have no way of knowing if Monty actually took part but it’s a real possibility.

                          I’d never say that it’s game over Druitt was the ripper but I feel that he’s far to easily dismissed by some these days. It’s almost as if he’s become an old-fashioned suspect. So I have no problem flying the flag and taking the flak I just wish that some could view the matter without bias though and that they would stop giving out opinions as facts. Very few suspects can be categorically dismissed however we rate them.
                          Ahhh! My turn for a

                          That does sound like a similar set up to Toynbee Hall, but I wasn't aware of this Oxford House.

                          As stated before, I wasn't really enamoured with the Hainsworth book, but have been meaning to give it another go.

                          Without being able to evaluate the "private information" Druitt stays in the race for me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                            Simply not cricket eh?

                            I believe there was a suggestion he was on a cricket tour at the end of August in Bournemouth, which means he would have had to have played cricket in Dorset in the day and kill Polly Nichols in Whitechapel late at night?

                            He also played a match a few hours after the murder of Annie Chapman. The argument is he suffered a multiple personality disorder? The murderer was not schizophrenic as the murders were not frenzied bouts of psychosis. The kills were methodical and done quite clinically. The mutilations were altogether something different. The murderer Ian Bailey (convicted as such in France, so no legal issues there) went to visit a communal swim in the sea the day after he murdered Sophie du Plantier. That level of psychopathy is completely achievable by a malignant and narcissistic psychopath. I just don't see MJD as that. He was depressed and ashamed - my guess is issues surrounding his sexuality and what happened at the school drove him to suicide and for the family to say what they said.

                            Toynbee Hall was also patronised by Michael Maybrick and many other well-to-do artists and celebrities of the day. Do we consider them as suspects too?
                            Well no, Ero!

                            Although Bruce Robinson would disagree!!

                            It would still be another small box ticked though, if Druitt could be linked to Toynbee Hall (or indeed this Oxford House which I was unaware of).

                            Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.

                            A murderer with DID would not necessarily commit a frenzied, psychotic style attack.

                            It COULD in theory explain someone committing the murders then calmly playing a game of cricket soon afterwards, although it's very rare and for me, an outside bet.





                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
                              Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.
                              Correct. Dissociative identity disorder (as it's now known) is a fragmented sense of self with multiple personalities, while schizophrenia is hallucinations and mental delusions.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                                Well no, Ero!

                                Although Bruce Robinson would disagree!!

                                It would still be another small box ticked though, if Druitt could be linked to Toynbee Hall (or indeed this Oxford House which I was unaware of).

                                Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.

                                A murderer with DID would not necessarily commit a frenzied, psychotic style attack.

                                It COULD in theory explain someone committing the murders then calmly playing a game of cricket soon afterwards, although it's very rare and for me, an outside bet.




                                Hi Ms Diddles.

                                Psychosis is a symptom not the illness, but is more associated with other mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is - hence why I picked that specifically. Also it was an accusation levelled at Kosminski who also appears on the same memo Herlock cites.

                                Most serial killers are psychopaths and generally not psychosis killers. The multiple personality disorder (or more modern DID) could be one such disorder that could create the ‘Jekyll and Hyde’ style effect on one’s personality. Cannot rule that out, but there is no evidence to suggest this was true in any other area of his life either. Someone with such a disorder would have other episodes. Whatever it is was (if anything) was not strong enough for Mac to be 100% certain himself.


                                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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