Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[John Wheat]

I'm sure you've been over it, but if have the time, what's the most damning thing against him, as you see it?

Hi Patrick

With Bury I would say the similarities between his ex prostitute wife's murder I'm talking strangulation followed by post mortem mutation. Ah but I here people say but his wife's murder wasn't extensive enough. But where are the other proven violent murderers amongst the suspects. Kelly aside there are none and with Kelly his wife's murder seems to be a one off schizophrenic action. Of course there are a number of other things Bury has going for him that other suspects don't.

Cheers John

[Elamarna]

Thanks, that's what I suspected. Only it seemed from some posts that there had been a definite ID. Thought I must have missed something. Seems the only thing they really had on him was the dog.

Hi MS

Legally and probable yes that is correct.

However I think it is fair to speculate that there had to be more than that for the number of senior officers to name the same surname.

I am quite happy to accept it was not Aaron, they meant if someone else can be named.


However I seriously doubt that we will ever know.


Steve

[Patrick S]

Yes I would take Bury against the rest of the field. I would pay out if it wasn't Bury. Just for clarification.

I'm sure you've been over it, but if have the time, what's the most damning thing against him, as you see it?

[John Wheat]

If you were given a choice between Bury and "the field", you'd still take Bury? That's not say that the name has to be someone among the "suspects" or "candidates", or whatever we wish to call those who've been put forward over the past thirteen decades. You'd collect if it were anyone NOT named W. H. Bury.

Yes I would take Bury against the rest of the field. I would pay out if it wasn't Bury. Just for clarification.

[MysterySinger]

Hi MS

Its not certain there was even an identification if we are looking objectively; However two senior police officer say there was: Anderson who does not give a name and Swanson who does.

However both Officers make additional statements that do not seem to fit Aaron Kozminski, that The suspect died soon after he was locked up.
A third officer, Macnaghten seems at one stage to say that the suspect look like someone seen by an unnamed Policeman near Mitre Square.

It really is not straight forward, even for those who think it may be true, or at least based on such.

If it took place, we do not know where, other than somewhere Swanson referred to as the "seaside home", which may or may not refer to a police convalescence home in Hove.

Neither do we know when or whom the witness was.
It is normally suggested this was either Lawende or Schwartz, but it could have been someone else, either the unknown policeman, if he existed or even a completely unknown person.


I personally think that an ID did take place, the next question is was it Aaron Koz or someone else? We have No first name given.

That is I think a clear summary of the situation with regards to the identification.

Thanks, that's what I suspected. Only it seemed from some posts that there had been a definite ID. Thought I must have missed something. Seems the only thing they really had on him was the dog.

[Patrick S]

Hi Damaso

I would say that saying that the reliability of the evidence against Kosminski can be called into question is a massive understatement. I also have to disagree with you're comments regarding Kosminski and other suspects. In my opinion and this is no secret nor something I haven't said before is that WH Bury is the best Ripper suspect by a country mile. And hypothetically if it could be revealed who the Ripper was I would put money on The Ripper being Bury.

Cheers John

If you were given a choice between Bury and "the field", you'd still take Bury? That's not say that the name has to be someone among the "suspects" or "candidates", or whatever we wish to call those who've been put forward over the past thirteen decades. You'd collect if it were anyone NOT named W. H. Bury.

[John Wheat]

Can you agree that at the very least its reliability can be called into question, given that it is not an official record?

In my view we have at different tiers of suspect.

Tier 1a
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, and where we do not have a compelling reason to dismiss them. I believe Kosminski falls into this category. I would not put Druitt into this category but some would. George Chapman may be in this category.

Tier 1b
People who were not investigated by the police as a suspect, but who can be placed at a murder scene. Hello, Hutchinson and Cross.

Tier 2
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, but where we have a compelling reason to dismiss them. Ostrog, for example.

Tier 3
"They were in London at the time" - most suspects.

Tier 4
"We can't even prove they were in London at the time" - Vincent Van Gogh, James Maybrick, etc.

In this view, Kosminski is indeed one of the stronger suspects, but it's a tallest midget contest.

Hi Damaso

I would say that saying that the reliability of the evidence against Kosminski can be called into question is a massive understatement. I also have to disagree with you're comments regarding Kosminski and other suspects. In my opinion and this is no secret nor something I haven't said before is that WH Bury is the best Ripper suspect by a country mile. And hypothetically if it could be revealed who the Ripper was I would put money on The Ripper being Bury.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

Well there's Anderson and Swanson so we probably would still have heard of him.

Anderson doesn't mention him, and it can't be ruled out that Swanson picked up the name "Kosminski" from the Macnaghten Memorandum. It may be significant that neither Macnaghten nor Swanson give Kosminski's first name; perhaps neither knew it.

[Abby Normal]

Well, MM's memo was only saying that Kos - and Druitt and Ostrog, don't forget - were more likely suspects than Cutbush. He might easily have plucked another 3 names out of the air, "any one of whom" could have suited his purpose just as well, in which case we'd quite possibly never have heard of Kosminski at all.

Well there's Anderson and Swanson so we probably would still have heard of him.

[Sam Flynn]

well I agree about Anderson. nonethe less I'm not so sure you can write it off as "anectotal". they were there, police reports have been lost-which Koz might have been in. and MMs memorandum is in the files is it not?

Well, MM's memo was only saying that Kos - and Druitt and Ostrog, don't forget - were more likely suspects than Cutbush. He might easily have plucked another 3 names out of the air, "any one of whom" could have suited his purpose just as well, in which case we'd quite possibly never have heard of Kosminski at all.

[Elamarna]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

Hi MS

Its not certain there was even an identification if we are looking objectively; However two senior police officer say there was: Anderson who does not give a name and Swanson who does.

However both Officers make additional statements that do not seem to fit Aaron Kozminski, that The suspect died soon after he was locked up.
A third officer, Macnaghten seems at one stage to say that the suspect look like someone seen by an unnamed Policeman near Mitre Square.

It really is not straight forward, even for those who think it may be true, or at least based on such.

If it took place, we do not know where, other than somewhere Swanson referred to as the "seaside home", which may or may not refer to a police convalescence home in Hove.

Neither do we know when or whom the witness was.
It is normally suggested this was either Lawende or Schwartz, but it could have been someone else, either the unknown policeman, if he existed or even a completely unknown person.


I personally think that an ID did take place, the next question is was it Aaron Koz or someone else? We have No first name given.

That is I think a clear summary of the situation with regards to the identification.

[Abby Normal]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

no its not beyond doubt, but in my mind its pretty certain it was him. Hes named by MM. Hes not named by Anderson but swanson names him and confirms the ID. the rest of the circs match up as well.

[Abby Normal]

Hi again Sam
and again agree with you here-I put hutch, Bury, chapman, as well as Kelly ahead of Koz too, for the resons you indicate.

Hi again sam

also, re your last post and "foreign madman" idea-again, pretty much agree with you but would just add that I cant help but think that threatening his sister with a knife might have been the final straw for the family and thus they reported the incident to the police and or doctors and this is what initially brought him to the attention of the police.

it would certainly get my attention. especially if I had a preconceived notion about a foreign, insane, violent and JEWISH suspect (cough...Anderson...cough). and then check the "lists" and hes on there. and then set up an ID and the jewish witness identifies him but wont swear to it.

But again, in my mind its the knife incident that probably started it all.

[MysterySinger]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

[Elamarna]

Good post El.
again I would add, mainly because many people use his apparent non violent behavior as reason against his validity, that his threatening his sister with a knife is significant. at least IMHO.

In addition of course it is recorded in his Colney Hatch records that he took up a chair against an attendant.

Given that the records are sparse to say he least we cannot make a reasoned argument as to if this was a one off or not.

What is clear is that 20 years after he is locked away he is incapable of anything, be it threatening or not.


Steve