Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[The Baron]

When Mac retired in 1913 he told those present at the gathering that he knew the identity of the ripper and that he’d committed suicide. So 19 years after the memorandum he goes for Druitt without mentioning his name. It can be no one else though.

Pointless post, it means nothing.

Even Macnaghten's own daughter didn't believe him or his fantasy theory.



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Correct. Dissociative identity disorder (as it's now known) is a fragmented sense of self with multiple personalities, while schizophrenia is hallucinations and mental delusions.

Hello Harry,

Good to see you back.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not quite. The memo lists him along with Ostorg and Kozminski. So not quite "the man". One of three men. The family thing, especially a well-to-do family like his, would already have had shame brought upon them from his suicide, the incident of the school and his 'sexual insanity'. It would not require much more for one or two of them to make such speculative connections themselves. As we do not know what that evidence is, it certainly was not strong enough for Mac to put his whole reputation on the line by sticking to his one best suspect only. Why bother with Ostorg and Koz at all?

When Mac retired in 1913 he told those present at the gathering that he knew the identity of the ripper and that he’d committed suicide. So 19 years after the memorandum he goes for Druitt without mentioning his name. It can be no one else though.

[erobitha]

Well no, Ero!

Although Bruce Robinson would disagree!!

It would still be another small box ticked though, if Druitt could be linked to Toynbee Hall (or indeed this Oxford House which I was unaware of).

Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.

A murderer with DID would not necessarily commit a frenzied, psychotic style attack.

It COULD in theory explain someone committing the murders then calmly playing a game of cricket soon afterwards, although it's very rare and for me, an outside bet.

Hi Ms Diddles.

Psychosis is a symptom not the illness, but is more associated with other mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is - hence why I picked that specifically. Also it was an accusation levelled at Kosminski who also appears on the same memo Herlock cites.

Most serial killers are psychopaths and generally not psychosis killers. The multiple personality disorder (or more modern DID) could be one such disorder that could create the ‘Jekyll and Hyde’ style effect on one’s personality. Cannot rule that out, but there is no evidence to suggest this was true in any other area of his life either. Someone with such a disorder would have other episodes. Whatever it is was (if anything) was not strong enough for Mac to be 100% certain himself.

[Harry D]

Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.

Correct. Dissociative identity disorder (as it's now known) is a fragmented sense of self with multiple personalities, while schizophrenia is hallucinations and mental delusions.

[Ms Diddles]

Simply not cricket eh?

I believe there was a suggestion he was on a cricket tour at the end of August in Bournemouth, which means he would have had to have played cricket in Dorset in the day and kill Polly Nichols in Whitechapel late at night?

He also played a match a few hours after the murder of Annie Chapman. The argument is he suffered a multiple personality disorder? The murderer was not schizophrenic as the murders were not frenzied bouts of psychosis. The kills were methodical and done quite clinically. The mutilations were altogether something different. The murderer Ian Bailey (convicted as such in France, so no legal issues there) went to visit a communal swim in the sea the day after he murdered Sophie du Plantier. That level of psychopathy is completely achievable by a malignant and narcissistic psychopath. I just don't see MJD as that. He was depressed and ashamed - my guess is issues surrounding his sexuality and what happened at the school drove him to suicide and for the family to say what they said.

Toynbee Hall was also patronised by Michael Maybrick and many other well-to-do artists and celebrities of the day. Do we consider them as suspects too?

Well no, Ero!

Although Bruce Robinson would disagree!!

It would still be another small box ticked though, if Druitt could be linked to Toynbee Hall (or indeed this Oxford House which I was unaware of).

Re the psychology of the murders as above, it's my understanding that Multiple Personality Disorder (or Dissociative Identity disorder as it's now known), is not synonymous with schizophrenia.

A murderer with DID would not necessarily commit a frenzied, psychotic style attack.

It COULD in theory explain someone committing the murders then calmly playing a game of cricket soon afterwards, although it's very rare and for me, an outside bet.

[Ms Diddles]

No Ms D it was something else mentioned in Jon Hainsworth’s book which I don’t have with me at the moment because I’m on holiday. I’m back tomorrow though and Jon’s updated book should be lying on the mat. I think it was Oxford House. They held a meeting at Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk to recruit former university men to do charitable work amongst the poor in the East End. Of course we have no way of knowing if Monty actually took part but it’s a real possibility.

I’d never say that it’s game over Druitt was the ripper but I feel that he’s far to easily dismissed by some these days. It’s almost as if he’s become an old-fashioned suspect. So I have no problem flying the flag and taking the flak I just wish that some could view the matter without bias though and that they would stop giving out opinions as facts. Very few suspects can be categorically dismissed however we rate them.

Ahhh! My turn for a

That does sound like a similar set up to Toynbee Hall, but I wasn't aware of this Oxford House.

As stated before, I wasn't really enamoured with the Hainsworth book, but have been meaning to give it another go.

Without being able to evaluate the "private information" Druitt stays in the race for me.

[erobitha]

Number 3 is a possible.

There is no cricket stuff though Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.

Simply not cricket eh?

I believe there was a suggestion he was on a cricket tour at the end of August in Bournemouth, which means he would have had to have played cricket in Dorset in the day and kill Polly Nichols in Whitechapel late at night?

He also played a match a few hours after the murder of Annie Chapman. The argument is he suffered a multiple personality disorder? The murderer was not schizophrenic as the murders were not frenzied bouts of psychosis. The kills were methodical and done quite clinically. The mutilations were altogether something different. The murderer Ian Bailey (convicted as such in France, so no legal issues there) went to visit a communal swim in the sea the day after he murdered Sophie du Plantier. That level of psychopathy is completely achievable by a malignant and narcissistic psychopath. I just don't see MJD as that. He was depressed and ashamed - my guess is issues surrounding his sexuality and what happened at the school drove him to suicide and for the family to say what they said.

Toynbee Hall was also patronised by Michael Maybrick and many other well-to-do artists and celebrities of the day. Do we consider them as suspects too?

[erobitha]

...an unknown that appears to have convinced Sir Melville that Monty was the man.

Not quite. The memo lists him along with Ostorg and Kozminski. So not quite "the man". One of three men. The family thing, especially a well-to-do family like his, would already have had shame brought upon them from his suicide, the incident of the school and his 'sexual insanity'. It would not require much more for one or two of them to make such speculative connections themselves. As we do not know what that evidence is, it certainly was not strong enough for Mac to put his whole reputation on the line by sticking to his one best suspect only. Why bother with Ostorg and Koz at all?

[Herlock Sholmes]

By the charitable organisation, are you referring to Toynbee Hall?

Although it wouldn't mean that he was JTR, I've often thought that if it could be confirmed that Druitt had volunteered there like many of his peers, it would at least place him in Whitechapel and potentially give him a good working knowledge of the streets.

That would put him ahead of Koz by a nose in my book.

No Ms D it was something else mentioned in Jon Hainsworth’s book which I don’t have with me at the moment because I’m on holiday. I’m back tomorrow though and Jon’s updated book should be lying on the mat. I think it was Oxford House. They held a meeting at Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk to recruit former university men to do charitable work amongst the poor in the East End. Of course we have no way of knowing if Monty actually took part but it’s a real possibility.

I’d never say that it’s game over Druitt was the ripper but I feel that he’s far to easily dismissed by some these days. It’s almost as if he’s become an old-fashioned suspect. So I have no problem flying the flag and taking the flak I just wish that some could view the matter without bias though and that they would stop giving out opinions as facts. Very few suspects can be categorically dismissed however we rate them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
So what we have is a document penned by MM setting out his own personal belief as to who the killer was based on what would appear to be nothing more than hearsay as far as Druitt is concerned

I don’t see how you can label something as hearsay when we don’t actually know the form that MacNaghten’s private info came in. For all that we know his brother William could have shown Mac a bag containing a bloodied knife and body parts. He could have shown him a note where Druitt confessed. We just don’t know and because we don’t know we can’t dismiss it as hearsay. It’s an unknown but it’s an unknown that appears to have convinced Sir Melville that Monty was the man.

[Ms Diddles]

There is no cricket stuff Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.

By the charitable organisation, are you referring to Toynbee Hall?

Although it wouldn't mean that he was JTR, I've often thought that if it could be confirmed that Druitt had volunteered there like many of his peers, it would at least place him in Whitechapel and potentially give him a good working knowledge of the streets.

That would put him ahead of Koz by a nose in my book.

[Ms Diddles]

Daily News 3 Sept;
"The husband visited the mortuary, and on viewing the corpse, identified it as that of his wife, from whom he had been separated eight years. He stated that she was nearly 44 years of age, but it must be owned that she looked nearly ten years younger, as indeed the police at first described the body."

Thanks Joshua!

That's the one!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll take number 3, please.

What may have seemed "strong" evidence of the time might not be so by current standards, and I would believe it would be based around his so-called 'sexual insanity'. Many interpret that as being gay, but I think we must also consider that it covers quite a broad range of things by Victorian standards. None of which make him a serial killer. There is no geographical proof MJD spent any time in Whitechapel, and then we have the cricket stuff.

Number 3 is a possible.

There is no cricket stuff though Erobitha. That’s a dead end. Druitt’s cricket wouldn’t have hindered him in any way. Yes we have no proof that he was in the East End but he was close enough to have had easy access. There was also a possible link via a charitable organisation.

It’s still difficult IMO to dismiss the fact that Mac said that even Druitt’s family felt that he was the ripper.

[erobitha]

So we have

1. Mac was correct, and Druitt was the ripper
or
2. Mac was given faulty information and Druitt wasn’t the ripper.
or
3. Mac was given what appeared to be strong evidence but Druitt still wasn’t guilty.
or
4. Mac just plucked Druitt’s name out of thin air.

I'll take number 3, please.

What may have seemed "strong" evidence of the time might not be so by current standards, and I would believe it would be based around his so-called 'sexual insanity'. Many interpret that as being gay, but I think we must also consider that it covers quite a broad range of things by Victorian standards. None of which make him a serial killer. There is no geographical proof MJD spent any time in Whitechapel, and then we have the cricket stuff.