Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[wolfie1]

Red, silk gauze worn as a handkerchief. Could that thing have been worn as a handkerchief?


Mike

how do you wear a handkerchief, is it around the neck?

[Jon Guy]

how do you wear a handkerchief, is it around the neck?

Annie Chapman wore a handkerchief around her neck.

From the Chapman inquest:
You have seen that handkerchief? - I recognise it as one which the deceased used to wear. She bought it of a lodger, and she was wearing it when she left the lodging-house. She was wearing it three-corner ways, placed round her neck

[wolfie1]

Annie Chapman wore a handkerchief around her neck.

From the Chapman inquest:
You have seen that handkerchief? - I recognise it as one which the deceased used to wear. She bought it of a lodger, and she was wearing it when she left the lodging-house. She was wearing it three-corner ways, placed round her neck

Thank you Jon, so assuming the scarf mentioned in the inquest article is also the red silk (handkerchief) we are hopefully referring to the same item of clothing.

[lynn cates]

inventory

Hello Rob. Thanks.

"This looks like red gauze silk to me. What am I missing?"

Heh-heh.

Yes, there was a thorough inventory. Scarf, yes; table runner, no.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

defect

Hello Wolfie.

"The article sadly does not mention color of the scarf around her neck."

A defect of the news. The police inventory is MUCH more thorough.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reason

Hello Jonathan.

"Worse, the story as told by a previous owner does not match the known facts."

Now you are using reason. You mustn't do that. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz

Hello Wolfie.

"how do you wear a handkerchief, is it around the neck?"

See under Liz Stride.

Cheers.
LC

[MrBarnett]

Just wondering...

If it's not Eddowes' shawl, then where did it come from?

To recap: it's a piece of old material, stained with blood and semen and owned by the family of an ex policeman who believe it came from a Victorian crime scene.

I'm guessing they probably didn't buy it in Woolworths in the 1960's.

MrB

[Monty]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-DNA-evidence-needs-work-Professor-Sir/story-22897321-detail/story.html

Even the Daddy of DNA profiling has his doubts.

Monty

[Monty]

Quite so! Of course, it is argued that he was on "special duty" - but Stewart Evans tells us - if I got it right - that the records of special duty assigned policemen still exist. And Simpson is ot listed amongst them.

The best,
Fisherman

He isnt listed amongst my copies of the 1888 Police Orders

Monty

[Monty]

The crime scene picture certainly doesn’t show a spare bit of cloth anywhere.
Stewart Evans reproduced somewhere the original information from Amos Simpson’s family regarding their oral tradition concerning the cloth.
I believe this tradition was a bit vague about where or how Amos Simpson came by it, although they definitely claimed a Ripper connection.
In other words whether Amos Simpson was on supposed to be on special duties, whether he obtained it while the body was in situ in Mitre Square or on its way to the morgue, is unclear from information originally supplied from the family
It was first brought to the attention of people outside their family in 1988.

It is clear from the extant records of what happened in Mitre Square that the names of every policeman or bystander was not recorded.
A Metropolitan Policeman was a constable in the City of London.

We are talking about an acting sergeant who allegedly took part in the removal of the body.

Monty

[Prosector]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Ja...ail/story.html

Even the Daddy of DNA profiling has his doubts.

Monty

I am currently reading the book and when Dr Jari announced the mtDNA haplotype it was T1a1. He said that it was 'Russian.' This initially gave Russell Edwards pause for thought but he gets around it by stating that in 1888 Russian and Polish were synonymous. The problem is that the T1a1 hapolotype is not found in Jews. See

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_mtDNA.shtml

This website shows that it is concentrated in that part of Russia to the East of the Black Sea but very rare in Poland where Kosminski hailed from and categorically 'not found in Jews.' This seems to me to be a bit of a problem - including, it must be said, for his present day collateral descendants.
Prosector

[Prosector]

I am currently reading the book and when Dr Jari announced the mtDNA haplotype it was T1a1. He said that it was 'Russian.' This initially gave Russell Edwards pause for thought but he gets around it by stating that in 1888 Russian and Polish were synonymous. The problem is that the T1a1 hapolotype is not found in Jews. See

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_mtDNA.shtml

This website shows that it is concentrated in that part of Russia to the East of the Black Sea but very rare in Poland where Kosminski hailed from and categorically 'not found in Jews.' This seems to me to be a bit of a problem - including, it must be said, for his present day collateral descendants.
Prosector

Sorry - I meant to the West of the Black Sea.
Prosector

[Jeff Leahy]

Oh, so just as many police- and added police- worked the day shift? Because so many of the JtR murders were occurring in broad daylight, right?

And to answer my question that you skipped over....Charles Warren of the MET POLICE went into the CITY OF LONDON and ordered that the graffiti be erased. That obliterates your theory that cops don't just cross over into other jurisdiction during times of chaos. He said he did it to prevent violence against Jews. By your logic, the Jews in the city of London weren't really Warren's concern, right?

Again, I don't want it to sound like I'm supporting this new book, because I'm not. The whole thing reeks of fraud. And while I've not read the book, I agree that it sounds like the author went out looking for the answers that conveniently fit his own preconceived theory. But at the same time, I've read A LOT of comments on this thread which are automatically dismissing any of this shawl story outright because it doesn't seem to fit the poster's pet theory. As far as I'm concerned, nothing plausible should be automatically accepted OR dismissed.

Hi Pontis

I don't think everyone hear is dismissing the claims out right.

Please understand that all previous wisdom on the shawl/Table runner was that it was Edwardian. If that opinion has been changed by more detailed and accurate dating measures that obviously the Shawl becomes something that at least existed in 1888.

Frankly the proinance and history seem fairly unlikely. But I don't think you'll find everyone here will dismiss out of hand new evidence.

All the best

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I am currently reading the book and when Dr Jari announced the mtDNA haplotype it was T1a1. He said that it was 'Russian.' This initially gave Russell Edwards pause for thought but he gets around it by stating that in 1888 Russian and Polish were synonymous. The problem is that the T1a1 hapolotype is not found in Jews. See

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_mtDNA.shtml

This website shows that it is concentrated in that part of Russia to the East of the Black Sea but very rare in Poland where Kosminski hailed from and categorically 'not found in Jews.' This seems to me to be a bit of a problem - including, it must be said, for his present day collateral descendants.
Prosector

Actually if you look at the pictures of Aaron Sister and cousin they don't look (And I don't wish to offend anyone here) typically jewish or what might be termed orthodox jewish but actually very polish.. quite fair

Yours Jeff