Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[robhouse]

Rob, I simply cannot believe that a carefully constructed, beautifully finished item comprising various panels and colours, complete with tassels at the end, could possibly be described as '1 piece of red gauze silk'.

When you offer someone a piece of chocolate, they know not to take the whole bar.

I think I agree with you, especially as the other items are described in more detail.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman
You are quite right - I apologise. In that case he was even further away and could not have 'stumbled into the City' unless he was off duty at the time or was sent there deliberately.
Prosector

Quite so! Of course, it is argued that he was on "special duty" - but Stewart Evans tells us - if I got it right - that the records of special duty assigned policemen still exist. And Simpson is ot listed amongst them.

The best,
Fisherman

[Pad]

There's tons to read and I am sorry if this has already been stated. If the DNA profilers were 100% tested correctly with the blind samples and all, then it would only prove that that shawl had been close proximity of Eddows and Kosminski at some point. It doesn't prove that Kosminski could be JTR. It doesn't even prove Eddows even met Kosminski. The fact is, Kosminski and Eddows were both in the area at the time and it is possible that Kosminski was even a client of Eddows but that's about it.

[Henry Flower]

I take your point though, and I argued earlier in the thread that the thing was not nearly as bulky as people were claiming, and that moreover a process called 'folding' had been invented just prior to the murders.

[wolfie1]

I think I agree with you, especially as the other items are described in more detail.

Was the piece of red silk, found around her neck by the first witnesses at the murder scene?

[robhouse]

I take your point though, and I argued earlier in the thread that the thing was not nearly as bulky as people were claiming, and that moreover a process called 'folding' had been invented just prior to the murders.

This video, at 0:20 shows how small the thing is folded:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh8sazLSMAY

RH

[robhouse]

Was the piece of red silk, found around her neck by the first witnesses at the murder scene?

What are you getting at? I do not believe the Amos Simpson story, as it has been told.

RH

[wolfie1]

Was the piece of red silk, found around her neck by the first witnesses at the murder scene?

If the red silk material wasn't found around her neck, what then is the scarf that was found around her neck, as stated per the Cornishman article?

Note. I would upload but having issues with PDF,s. and also not sure if article is copyright and not public domain yet.

[Poch]

I see we're still going round and round in cricles, 'debating' questions which are all answered if one would just read the book. I've even tried to answer these same questions and given the books point of view for those that simply will not read it on principle (understandable to an extent) in this very thread.

I've said it in earlier posts, but I found the book fascinating. There were facets which warranted debate 100% (to put it lightly), several in fact, but unfortunately most seem hung up on backslapping about the 'table runner'.

I've read far whackier books about JtR and many that have gained traction. Its safe to say that even the more 'respected' books about JtR (Sugden for one example) has parts of the book which are certainly debatable, so what's so different here?

[Lechmere]

The crime scene picture certainly doesn’t show a spare bit of cloth anywhere.
Stewart Evans reproduced somewhere the original information from Amos Simpson’s family regarding their oral tradition concerning the cloth.
I believe this tradition was a bit vague about where or how Amos Simpson came by it, although they definitely claimed a Ripper connection.
In other words whether Amos Simpson was on supposed to be on special duties, whether he obtained it while the body was in situ in Mitre Square or on its way to the morgue, is unclear from information originally supplied from the family
It was first brought to the attention of people outside their family in 1988.

It is clear from the extant records of what happened in Mitre Square that the names of every policeman or bystander was not recorded.
A Metropolitan Policeman was a constable in the City of London.

[wolfie1]

If the red silk material wasn't found around her neck, what then is the scarf that was found around her neck, as stated per the Cornishman article?

Note. I would upload but having issues with PDF,s. and also not sure if article is copyright and not public domain yet.

rob, an article in The Cornishman, a recent title digitised and uploaded on UK Newspaper articles Thu Oct 11 1888, stated that Eddows, also known as Eliza Conway, a cleaning women to Jewish homes, and a hawker, was found with a scarf around her neck by the first witnesses on the scene. I would like to know if the red silk as reported was the actual material described as found around her neck? Or is it not a known scarf, yet discussed on the boards .

[Poch]

I can put this to bed too, though I expect nothing to come of it. The book states that the shawl was mis-reported as a skirt by the press, which described the shawl at the crime scene, but said it was a skirt. The descriptions of the skirts by the police do not match what the press reported, as all her skirts are plain.

It's the authors theory that the shawl was mis-identified as a skirt by the press and by the time the police wrote up the articles of clothing for the report, Amos has already taken off with the shawl, hence it not appearing in police records.

Whether or not that is believable is another story.

[wolfie1]

The crime scene picture certainly doesn’t show a spare bit of cloth anywhere.
Stewart Evans reproduced somewhere the original information from Amos Simpson’s family regarding their oral tradition concerning the cloth.
I believe this tradition was a bit vague about where or how Amos Simpson came by it, although they definitely claimed a Ripper connection.
In other words whether Amos Simpson was on supposed to be on special duties, whether he obtained it while the body was in situ in Mitre Square or on its way to the morgue, is unclear from information originally supplied from the family
It was first brought to the attention of people outside their family in 1988.

It is clear from the extant records of what happened in Mitre Square that the names of every policeman or bystander was not recorded.
A Metropolitan Policeman was a constable in the City of London.

I am referring to a newspaper article re Eddowes inquest, it claimed a scarf was around her neck when she was found. Yet others on the boards are stating there was no material found with her??? I tend to believe published articles at the time, although it was Only mentioned in one article that I can find online, other reports of the same inquests are shorter in duration and omit the scarf around her neck and the fact she was noted to be a cleaner in Jewish homes and a hawker. Same article, also downplayed her drinking and lady of the night activities. Also refers to her as aka Eliza Conway.
Am I the only one who has read this article???

[The Good Michael]

Red, silk gauze worn as a handkerchief. Could that thing have been worn as a handkerchief?


Mike

[Henry Flower]

Poch,you're doing a grand job, thank you for your input. It's good to have one person on board who has actually read the book!