Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Henry Flower]

"And if Kosminski murdered Eddowes it doesn't prove he murdered any of the others."

No indeed. And even if it were proved that he murdered all of them, that still doesn't prove that he was Jack the Ripper, because they might not have been Ripper victims; Jack's real victims might have been other women, whose murders are either unrecorded or not attributed to him.

“I am much interested in the subject now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name.”

[Bitsie]

Thank you Lynn

[Henry Flower]

Why cut cloth from Eddowes apron when he could have used the shawl to wipe his hands?

Bitsie, I have an alternative answer to the question, reasonable though yours is.

When PC Amos Simpson stumbled out of his own jurisdiction and into City territory, and saw the Ripper savaging Eddowes, he knew it would upset the City police if he made an arrest on their turf. However, he also saw a rather lovely shawl that the Ripper had cast aside while searching for Kate's neck, and he wanted it, despite the fact it was being liberally doused with mitochondrial DNA even as he watched. Knowing that within moments of the murder the place would be crawling with officers of the City force, he sidled cautiously up and grabbed it while Jack was still busy editing Eddowes' face. Thus by the time Jack needed to wipe his hands, the shawl was already gone, and therefore the apron needed to be cut. Jack, naturally, assumed a Jew had taken it, hence the rather forlorn message he left later in Goulston St.

There is no proof that this is not exactly what happened.

[curious4]

Kominsky

I agree. Quite apart from the scientific shortcomings regarding the alleged DNA evidence Kosminsky was by all available accounts a low grade (ie poorly functioning) schizophrenic. Motivation or personality don't really come into it. The idea that he could have carried out such sophisticated murders and left clues relating to the Russian and English Michaelmas is stretching the imagination somewhat. In any case he was Jewish so the Christian festival of Michaelmas was not part of his culture.
Prosector

Much is made of Kosminski appearing in court and apparently appearing quite normal. However this did call to mind something which happened in Sweden some years back. Taking advantage of the fact that "all foreigners look alike", some enterprising immigrants were happily taking driving tests for others and swapping names to get health care they wouldn't otherwise qualify for. Now, of course, we have to show our id cards everywhere, but it did strike me that some relative of Kosminski may have appeared in court for him if he wasn't fit to appear. (Warning, this post contains speculation!) (And is a bit off topic!)

Best wishes,

C4

[curious4]

Hello Anna,

It wasn't a second hand shop in Maidstone, ordinary clothes shop. Still existed way back when I was a child. Think there's a bank there now.

Best wishes,

C4

[Prosector]

Anything's possible. She could have worn a tablecloth or a bedspread as a shawl. All that Anna (and I) am saying is that a piece of decorated cloth of those dimensions is much more likely to have been designed and used as a table runner than a shawl in which case the stains could have been food or wine rather than blood and semen. Without evidence that Catherine was wearing a table runner as a shawl I personally don't think it should be described as such.
Prosector

[Prosector]

Bitsie, I have an alternative answer to the question, reasonable though yours is.

When PC Amos Simpson stumbled out of his own jurisdiction and into City territory, and saw the Ripper savaging Eddowes, he knew it would upset the City police if he made an arrest on their turf. However, he also saw a rather lovely shawl that the Ripper had cast aside while searching for Kate's neck, and he wanted it, despite the fact it was being liberally doused with mitochondrial DNA even as he watched. Knowing that within moments of the murder the place would be crawling with officers of the City force, he sidled cautiously up and grabbed it while Jack was still busy editing Eddowes' face. Thus by the time Jack needed to wipe his hands, the shawl was already gone, and therefore the apron needed to be cut. Jack, naturally, assumed a Jew had taken it, hence the rather forlorn message he left later in Goulston St.

There is no proof that this is not exactly what happened.

I appeciate that your post is meant ironically but PC Simpson could hardly have stumbled out of Islington where he was based into Mitre Square. The nearest part of Islington is Finsbury Square and that is diametrically on the opposite side of the City of London.
Prosector

[Henry Flower]

Prosector, that's fair enough. Personally I agree with you. This feels the same to me as the moment when we first heard that the Ripper Diary wasn't even a diary at all, it was an album that had the (presumably) used pages hacked out of it.

[Mr Lucky]

I'm I the only person who is actually impressed that they have managed to extract mtDNA from 120+ year old sperm cells?

[Gene Lewis]

I
2. There is no mention of the shawl in any police records, not at the murder site which the inventory is well documented.

Unlike what I said this morning, listing the items found on Kate Eddowes, could the "piece of red gauze silk worn as a neckerchief" be THE shawl ?? Doesn't fit well, but …

[anna]

Hi curious4,
Sorry I got the description of the shop wrong.Wow!You're so lucky that you can remember the shop. I would have loved to go in there..what a shame it no longer exists.

Table Runner.
Although,in general,table runners did exist in 1888..just seen Lynn Cates post that THIS particular table runner,dates to between 1902 to 1904. I presume it was dated when it was originally tested.

So...with that in mind,it couldn't have belonged to Kate.

[curious4]

Hello Gene,

No, a neckerchief would be roughly the size of a large men's handkerchief and folded into a triangle and tied round the throat as a scarf is nowadays. Eight feet or so would have her tripping over the ends, even were she to manage to tie it.

Best wishes

C4

[Bitsie]

When PC Amos Simpson stumbled out of his own jurisdiction and into City territory, and saw the Ripper savaging Eddowes, he knew it would upset the City police if he made an arrest on their turf. However, he also saw a rather lovely shawl that the Ripper had cast aside while searching for Kate's neck, and he wanted it, despite the fact it was being liberally doused with mitochondrial DNA even as he watched. Knowing that within moments of the murder the place would be crawling with officers of the City force, he sidled cautiously up and grabbed it while Jack was still busy editing Eddowes' face. Thus by the time Jack needed to wipe his hands, the shawl was already gone, and therefore the apron needed to be cut. Jack, naturally, assumed a Jew had taken it, hence the rather forlorn message he left later in Goulston St.

There is no proof that this is not exactly what happened.

Makes perfect sense to me! Perhaps before PC Amos snatched the shawl he took a quick snap on his iphone and sent it to his wife to check her approval?

I'm sure the selfie will end up on the Daily Mail online before the end of the week.

[Jan666]

If anyone is considering purchasing the book, there's a preview here

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xxxiBAAAQBAJ&pg=PP5&lpg=PP5&dq=jack+the+ripper+shawl+auction&source=bl&ots=gySkiackR7&sig=pKh_DlPXMJR_I2CvWT52CnT7qRE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zV4NVMG_Bs_naI-GgpAH&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Observer]

William Gullible to the nth degree

Hello Bitsie. Welcome to the boards.

Yes, indeed. This table runner did not exist until next century.

Cheers.
LC

Evidence? And it's definitely a table-runner?