Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Pc Watkins found the body at 1.44

Wrong, he found the body at 1.45

And smith after saying half past twelve he qualified it and said 25 minutes to one o'clock.

Subtracting minutes there and adding minutes there to make it looks dramatically different, in an era where we know all those timings were not as exact as we imagine them today, is not a good scholarship, we don't know how much it took the killer to do what he did.



Stick to the facts.


TB

I AM sticking to the facts as we know them.


Here is what Pc Watkins testified:


I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.


He said 1.44 - not 1.45, as you claim he said.

[Elamarna]

I agree with you about the reliability of timings, but I am going by the evidence.

We do not have anything else to go by.

I think I said 'about three minutes'.

I didn't say 'exactly three minutes'.

But there is a big difference between three minutes and ten minutes.

Even if Watkins was out by a minute or two relative to the clock seen by Lawende, what difference would that make?

If it was 1.46 and not 1.44, then the murder could have taken place five minutes later instead of three minutes, but I think that's unlikely.

If it was 1.42 rather than 1.44, then the murder could not have happened - or to put it another way, Watkins would have seen the murderer escaping.

Or it could be that the murderer left at 1.43 (by the clock) and that Watkins arrived at 1.45.

In that case, my estimate of 3 minutes becomes 4 minutes.

I don't see how 3 minutes can be out by much.

I agree you are using the Times given, and you said about, I am certainly not critising that.
But we need to understand those times are not reliable, they are simply guides.

Any stated time could easily be 2 or 3 minutes out, sometimes even more.
This makes research based on absolute times totally unreliable in my view.

I did a two year look at timings, for a presentation at this year's East End Conference.
You would be surprised just how unreliable public clocks are today, and that's with digital time signals.

It's in the podcast section.

[The Baron]

"Whilst Morris looked for his lamp, Watkins noted the time as 1.45am by his own watch"

He entered Mitre Square at around 1 44, but the exact timing he did was AFTER he found the body and it was 1.45

And I don't believe any of those timings were 100% accurate.

TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

he described the suspect’s clothes, which were not the uniform of a sailor, and he described the suspect as “rough and shabby”. Common sense would say that perhaps when he saw sailors on leave in the city, they’d often dress rough and shabby so he would describe this suspect’s appearance as sailors that he often sees. He certainly did not say that the suspect WAS a sailor nor did he describe anything about the suspect that coincides with him being a sailor.



Then perhaps you should go to the front page of this very website, click on the “witnesses” tab to the left, then click on the link to Lawende. There, you will find the description of the suspect having brown hair, which I quoted word for word. It was from a newspaper and the description was credited to Lawende. If you argue that it was only from a newspaper and not directly from Lawende’ mouth, the response will be that “appearance of a sailor” was also not from Lawende’s mouth.





What do you mean “according to me” he wasn’t working in the Police Department??? It is a 100% FACT that Melville Macnaghten was not working in the police department during the Whitechapel Murders. Are you now attempting to argue against known fact?

here’s some more fact: Anderson was in absentia until the double event. Warren, aside from being incompetent, resigned the day of the Kelly murder. Abberline didn’t enter the picture until, I believe, the Nichols murder. Reid and Helson were in and out of the picture as they worked other cases and had other duties. The one and only constant from the beginning to the end was Donald Swanson. It can be safely said that aside from Jack the Ripper himself, probably no other human who ever lived knew more about this case than Donald Swanson. So it would be interesting to hear how you, 130+ years removed, find Swanson’s notes to be less reliable than someone who wasn’t even working in the police at the time. Because 22+ years later, he confused which and what order asylums/work houses the suspect was admitted to, or that someone had told him wrongly that the suspect died? Those things are understandable. What he would likely NOT forget or misremember, even up to the day he died, was that in the biggest case he ever worked, a process took place in which a suspect was identified by a witness who refused to swear further, and that no other JtR murders ever took place once this particular suspect was put away for good.

As I said earlier, I believe one of the reasons that Lawende said that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was that he was wearing a pepper and salt coloured loose fitting jacket, which was commonly worn by sailors.

I never claimed that he said the suspect was a sailor.

I wrote some minutes ago that I never wrote that he said that the suspect was a sailor.

Lawende was considered to be a reliable witness, who quite obviously was not seeking publicity as he actually showed no special interest in the murders when being interviewed by the police.

My understanding is that the description I have cited and quoted comes from the police record.

You're saying that Swanson must have known what he was talking about and that it is understandable he got something wrong about when the suspect died.

That might be credible if he hadn't been out by about 30 years.

I would suggest that the evidence suggests that what we are dealing with is some kind of myth that started a few years after the murders ended.

At the core of the myth is the idea that the murderer died soon after the last murder - that is, the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.

We have evidence that Anderson, Swanson and MacNaghten all claimed, or all thought, that the murderer died soon after the last murder.

I would suggest that that is beyond mere coincidence.

The idea that the murderer escaped justice because a Jew refused to help bring him to justice is itself an echo of an old anti-Jewish libel that a Jewish mob enabled an alleged murderer - Barabbas - to go free, and turned down the opportunity to set the Son of God free.

Whenever I read or hear researchers scratching their heads, trying to figure out the identity of the un-named, missing witness, I cannot help but think to myself, 'Can you not see why there is no trace of this witness? Because the witness never existed except in the minds of men!'

[The Baron]

I would like to see where you get that Macnaghten thought Kosminski was dead or died soon after.


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would like to see where you get that Macnaghten thought Kosminski was dead or died soon after.


TB

In Days of My Years, published in 1914, but I didn't claim that he meant Kosminski.


In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melville_Macnaghten

[The Baron]

In Days of My Years, published in 1914, but I didn't claim that he meant Kosminski.


In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melville_Macnaghten

That was Druitt.

And Anderson didn't say it explicitly that Kosminski was dead, what his son said or didn't say is a mere hearsay, that is if the Kosminski was certainly Aaron not someone else.


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That was Druitt.

And Anderson didn't say it explicitly that Kosminski was dead, what his son said or didn't say is a mere hearsay, that is if the Kosminski was certainly Aaron not someone else.


TB

I know it was Druitt; that's why I said he didn't mean Kosminski.

What his son said his father thought - which was obviously based on something he had said or written - certainly counts for something.

I wouldn't call that hogwash.

[Pontius2000]

As I said earlier, I believe one of the reasons that Lawende said that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was that he was wearing a pepper and salt coloured loose fitting jacket, which was commonly worn by sailors.

I never claimed that he said the suspect was a sailor.

I wrote some minutes ago that I never wrote that he said that the suspect was a sailor.

you have said numerous times in this thread that the suspect was a blonde sailor. Not that there is any shred of evidence pointing to this, but rather that IF he were a blonde sailor, it would exclude Kosminski from being the suspect. As far as a “pepper and salt loose jacket”, you obviously mean that this was a common thing worn by people of the age of sailors, as thus certainly does not describe a sailor’s uniform and would not have been exclusively worn or available to sailors only.

Lawende was considered to be a reliable witness, who quite obviously was not seeking publicity as he actually showed no special interest in the murders when being interviewed by the police.

My understanding is that the description I have cited and quoted comes from the police record.

Lawende’s official description is about age 30, about 5 ft 8-9, rough and shabby, fair complexion and fair moustache, red neckerchief. The “appearance of a sailor” and “brown hair” are both from later descriptions attributed to Lawende and are not in his initial statement to police.

You're saying that Swanson must have known what he was talking about and that it is understandable he got something wrong about when the suspect died.

That might be credible if he hadn't been out by about 30 years.

Swanson’s marginalia occurred AT LEAST 22 years after the fact. The last official addition to the file was, I believe, toward the end of 1889 meaning that for all intents and purposes, the active investigation ended around that point. It certainly is understandable as to why some things would be misremembered. It is also odd that he would say the suspect died soon afterwards. He could have been told that and not looked into it. There are infinite reasons why he could have got that wrong. But the fact is that the investigation was over at that point and they likely would not have followed up on whether or not the suspect had in fact died.

I would suggest that the evidence suggests that what we are dealing with is some kind of myth that started a few years after the murders ended.

At the core of the myth is the idea that the murderer died soon after the last murder - that is, the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.

We have evidence that Anderson, Swanson and MacNaghton all claimed, or all thought, that the murderer died soon after the last murder.

I would suggest that that is beyond mere coincidence.

and I would guess that you are wrong. It is fact that police got onto the trail of suspects after the Kelly murder. Anderson/Swanson (nor Macnaghten) are not the only ones who claimed that the identity of the killer was definitely known, several others made the same claim. It is also fact the JtR killings ended with Mary Kelly, which happened to coincide with when the police were on the trail of certain suspects. It is also fact that the following year, the final addition to the case was made, indicating that police considered it closed.

so for there to be a “myth”, you’d have to accept that the police just happened to get lucky that the killer stopped killing- for some unknown reason- at about the same time that police began trailing a suspect/suspect(s) and not long before the police closed the case altogether. That, to me, is not believable. It is apparent that the police either absolutely knew the identity of the killer, or at the very least knew that the killer was one of a small group of suspects who all happened to be taken out of commission at about the same time (such as Kosminski, Levy, and Druitt).

The idea that the murderer escaped justice because a Jew refused to help bring him to justice is itself an echo of an old anti-Jewish libel that a Jewish mob enabled an alleged murderer - Barabbas - to go free, and turned down the opportunity to set the Son of God free.

that is nonsense. It was based on the phenomenon of mesirah, as has been pointed out. And this phenomenon is even common today, amongst other racial and ethnic groups. Many times, members of communities who consider themselves abused or oppressed will protect fellow members- even bad ones- from authorities of what they see as the oppressive group who they view as the greater of two evils.

[The Baron]

We don't have any document of Anderson that says Kosminski died soon after.

We don't have any document of Mcnaghten that says Kosminski died soon after.

Macnaghten went further to say "He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum"


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

you have said numerous times in this thread that the suspect was a blonde sailor. Not that there is any shred of evidence pointing to this, but rather that IF he were a blonde sailor, it would exclude Kosminski from being the suspect. As far as a “pepper and salt loose jacket”, you obviously mean that this was a common thing worn by people of the age of sailors, as thus certainly does not describe a sailor’s uniform and would not have been exclusively worn or available to sailors only.



Lawende’s official description is about age 30, about 5 ft 8-9, rough and shabby, fair complexion and fair moustache, red neckerchief. The “appearance of a sailor” and “brown hair” are both from later descriptions attributed to Lawende and are not in his initial statement to police.



Swanson’s marginalia occurred AT LEAST 22 years after the fact. The last official addition to the file was, I believe, toward the end of 1889 meaning that for all intents and purposes, the active investigation ended around that point. It certainly is understandable as to why some things would be misremembered. It is also odd that he would say the suspect died soon afterwards. He could have been told that and not looked into it. There are infinite reasons why he could have got that wrong. But the fact is that the investigation was over at that point and they likely would not have followed up on whether or not the suspect had in fact died.





and I would guess that you are wrong. It is fact that police got onto the trail of suspects after the Kelly murder. Anderson/Swanson (nor Macnaghten) are not the only ones who claimed that the identity of the killer was definitely known, several others made the same claim. It is also fact the JtR killings ended with Mary Kelly, which happened to coincide with when the police were on the trail of certain suspects. It is also fact that the following year, the final addition to the case was made, indicating that police considered it closed.

so for there to be a “myth”, you’d have to accept that the police just happened to get lucky that the killer stopped killing- for some unknown reason- at about the same time that police began trailing a suspect/suspect(s) and not long before the police closed the case altogether. That, to me, is not believable. It is apparent that the police either absolutely knew the identity of the killer, or at the very least knew that the killer was one of a small group of suspects who all happened to be taken out of commission at about the same time (such as Kosminski, Levy, and Druitt).




that is nonsense. It was based on the phenomenon of mesirah, as has been pointed out. And this phenomenon is even common today, amongst other racial and ethnic groups. Many times, members of communities who consider themselves abused or oppressed will protect fellow members- even bad ones- from authorities of what they see as the oppressive group who they view as the greater of two evils.

I really don't see the point of responding further to your replies, because you dismiss everything I say as rubbish or nonsense.

You're clinging to a myth that has no basis in fact, any more than the Barabbas myth.

It is fact that police got onto the trail of suspects after the Kelly murder. Anderson/Swanson (nor Macnaghten) are not the only ones who claimed that the identity of the killer was definitely known, several others made the same claim.... It was based on the phenomenon of mesirah

Well, that is interesting.

You cite MacNaghten.

Macnaghten shared my belief that Kosminski was not the murderer!

It doesn't seem that he thought much of the Mesirah nonsense either, or he would have mentioned it.

What you seem to have missed is that what he said destroys your contention that the police knew the identity of the murderer.

Only Anderson and Swanson believed all the nonsense about Kosminski and Mesirah.

If there were any truth in it, MacNaghten, Abberline, Henry Smith, and Edmund Reid would have said so.

We might even have heard from the CID officers who had, according to Swanson, been watching Kosminski day and night.

But we never heard a word from them, because it never happened.

[The Baron]

Macnaghten shared my belief that Kosminski was not the murderer!

Not true, Macnaghten said there were many circumstances that make Kosminski a strong suspect

Macnaghten favored Druitt because of some private information, so did he share your belief then?

Did he share the blond sailor theory you are pushing?


TB

[Abby Normal]

you have said numerous times in this thread that the suspect was a blonde sailor. Not that there is any shred of evidence pointing to this, but rather that IF he were a blonde sailor, it would exclude Kosminski from being the suspect. As far as a “pepper and salt loose jacket”, you obviously mean that this was a common thing worn by people of the age of sailors, as thus certainly does not describe a sailor’s uniform and would not have been exclusively worn or available to sailors only.



Lawende’s official description is about age 30, about 5 ft 8-9, rough and shabby, fair complexion and fair moustache, red neckerchief. The “appearance of a sailor” and “brown hair” are both from later descriptions attributed to Lawende and are not in his initial statement to police.



Swanson’s marginalia occurred AT LEAST 22 years after the fact. The last official addition to the file was, I believe, toward the end of 1889 meaning that for all intents and purposes, the active investigation ended around that point. It certainly is understandable as to why some things would be misremembered. It is also odd that he would say the suspect died soon afterwards. He could have been told that and not looked into it. There are infinite reasons why he could have got that wrong. But the fact is that the investigation was over at that point and they likely would not have followed up on whether or not the suspect had in fact died.





and I would guess that you are wrong. It is fact that police got onto the trail of suspects after the Kelly murder. Anderson/Swanson (nor Macnaghten) are not the only ones who claimed that the identity of the killer was definitely known, several others made the same claim. It is also fact the JtR killings ended with Mary Kelly, which happened to coincide with when the police were on the trail of certain suspects. It is also fact that the following year, the final addition to the case was made, indicating that police considered it closed.

so for there to be a “myth”, you’d have to accept that the police just happened to get lucky that the killer stopped killing- for some unknown reason- at about the same time that police began trailing a suspect/suspect(s) and not long before the police closed the case altogether. That, to me, is not believable. It is apparent that the police either absolutely knew the identity of the killer, or at the very least knew that the killer was one of a small group of suspects who all happened to be taken out of commission at about the same time (such as Kosminski, Levy, and Druitt).




that is nonsense. It was based on the phenomenon of mesirah, as has been pointed out. And this phenomenon is even common today, amongst other racial and ethnic groups. Many times, members of communities who consider themselves abused or oppressed will protect fellow members- even bad ones- from authorities of what they see as the oppressive group who they view as the greater of two evils.

hi pontius
I agree with you in your disagreement with PI about the blonde sailor stuff. however, the investigation didnt end in 1889, and its certainly not a fact that the last victim was mary kelly. mckenzie at the very least, could have been, and many, including modern experts and contemporaneous people, think she was the last victim. And the last addition included in the file is the winters coming ripper letter that was received in 96.

[GBinOz]

You don't know who the City PC was, and trying to fit him in another Met witness from another scene.. this is a ball I don't like to play.

And turned a blind eye to what I posted

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

Sagar's comment would have been based on Langdon's article in Pearson's Weekly in 1912 I should think, the PC being Watkins.

Let me recall one of the murders, the Mitre
Square murder. It was night and the policeman
had passed through the square once, everything
being then apparently all right. He walked on,
coming to a court leading from a street out of Mitre
Square. Halfway up the court he stood sideways
to allow a man to pass him. The man came from
the direction of the square.

Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had
been in the square previously - the policeman
entered it again, and started to walk round it.
Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up
in a corner. It was a woman lying dead, killed by
the hand of Jack the Ripper! Was the man he had
stood sideways to allow to pass Jack? Probably.

Watkins would have been making his round through the Orange Market, virtually facing the St. James Passage, when he came face to face with a man emerging from the passage. The mystery is why he didn't mention this at the inquest.

[The Baron]

Sagar's comment would have been based on Langdon's article in Pearson's Weekly in 1912 I should think, the PC being Watkins.

Let me recall one of the murders, the Mitre
Square murder. It was night and the policeman
had passed through the square once, everything
being then apparently all right. He walked on,
coming to a court leading from a street out of Mitre
Square. Halfway up the court he stood sideways
to allow a man to pass him. The man came from
the direction of the square.

Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had
been in the square previously - the policeman
entered it again, and started to walk round it.
Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up
in a corner. It was a woman lying dead, killed by
the hand of Jack the Ripper! Was the man he had
stood sideways to allow to pass Jack? Probably.

Watkins would have been making his round through the Orange Market, virtually facing the St. James Passage, when he came face to face with a man emerging from the passage. The mystery is why he didn't mention this at the inquest.

One thing I am sure of is that the police understandably were not giving everything open handed to the public.

There were even private detectives around the place that night, I find it hard to believe that no one at all suspected something.


TB