Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior, yet he mentions nothing about any Id parade and in fact later exonerates Kosminski

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree.

That was the final point I made in # 340 in this same thread, and I did have in mind your point that Swanson could hardly have known about the identification without Macnaghten knowing about it too.

Does your point that Reid even asks him (Anderson) to prove what he had written come from the same interview as the one in which Reid condemned Anderson's remarks?

You also wrote: Aaron Kosminski was originally found by Martin Fido and eliminated soon after by Martin as his antecedents did not match those of the Kosmniski mentioned in the MM.

I do recall Fido's change of mind but I don't recall what he wrote about antecedents.

Can you elaborate?


One of the quotes from Anderson which figures in the discussion from years ago to which I refer is that the suspect had been safely caged in an Asylum
(Criminals and Crime, 1907)

One does wonder why Anderson and Swanson would have contemplated bringing charges against someone who had presumably been certified.

Would that have been a normal procedure?


Jonathan H wrote:

Primary sources from 1892 arguably show Anderson with no knowledge as yet of 'Kosminski', let alone of Aaron Kosminski -- let alone about a positive witness identification which turned a debacle into a near-triumph...

I wonder which source he had in mind.

[Elamarna]

Equally, if not more important, to this discussion: Sir Robert Anderson: A Source Analysis by Paul Begg, Ripperologist no. 100, February 2009.

And John Malcolm is working on a book on Anderson at present Scott.

Steve

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"


However Kosminski looked like, he was identified, and he strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC.


TB

The fictional City Police Constable.

[Wickerman]

The fictional City Police Constable.

If you read through Macnaughten's papers - the Authorized Version. You will see where he confuses the two murders:

With regard to the double murder which occurred on 30th September there is not doubt that the ‘Ripper’ was disturbed by some Jews just after he had cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat, and before he had time to commence to mutilate her. He had got the victim behind a kind of stable door through which three Jews drove up to an Anarchist Club in Berners Street.

It wasn't 'some Jews' who disturbed the killer, it was one Jew. And it was three Jews at the Mitre Square murder who the police believed saw the killer, it was only one Jew who drove up to the Anarchist Club.

Then of course, he writes:

No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was on [handwritten] a beat near Mitre Square)

The only PC who the police believe actually saw the murderer, and was widely published in the press at the time, was PC Smith of the Met. police (not City).
He was on his beat near Dutfields Yard, not near Mitre Square.

Mac simply confused some details between the two murders.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If you read through Macnaughten's papers - the Authorized Version. You will see where he confuses the two murders:

With regard to the double murder which occurred on 30th September there is not doubt that the ‘Ripper’ was disturbed by some Jews just after he had cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat, and before he had time to commence to mutilate her. He had got the victim behind a kind of stable door through which three Jews drove up to an Anarchist Club in Berners Street.

It wasn't 'some Jews' who disturbed the killer, it was one Jew. And it was three Jews at the Mitre Square murder who the police believed saw the killer, it was only one Jew who drove up to the Anarchist Club.

Then of course, he writes:

No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was on [handwritten] a beat near Mitre Square)

The only PC who the police believe actually saw the murderer, and was widely published in the press at the time, was PC Smith of the Met. police (not City).
He was on his beat near Dutfields Yard, not near Mitre Square.

Mac simply confused some details between the two murders.

Thanks so much for that explanation, which I consider to be completely convincing.

MacNaghten made so many factual errors that no-one has ever tried to excuse them.

Why, I wonder, do so many people try to explain away Swanson's mistakes?



P.S. I don't understand why the police would have attached importance to Pc Smith's possible sighting of Elizabeth Stride because, if it was at 12.30 a.m., then it was about a quarter of an hour before Schwarz saw her with what was evidently a different man.

[The Baron]

The author of that post is himself a BIG Macnaghten believer... the irony

And here we have another poster who thinks spotting Kosminski with Stride 15 Minutes before Schwarzt sighting is not important, that is if one accepted that the City PC referred to was Smith and no other, which is only an opinion.



TB

[The Baron]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

[Varqm]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

This looks the same as PC Langford's story

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"


However Kosminski looked like, he was identified, and he strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC.


TB

Did he indeed?

Could you tell us the name of the Pc who you claim saw Kosminski near Mitre Square?

Did MacNaghten, Anderson or Swanson mention his name?

Anderson, when compiling his memoirs, forgot to mention the name of the police constable who helped prove the murderer was a Jew?

And when all hell let loose, and Anderson was being condemned for his comments about the Jews and the alleged Jewish murderer, all he had to do was refer his critics to the identification made by the City Police constable.

But he did not!

Swanson wrote his marginalia and endnotes in such a hurry - I mean, he only had 15 years in which to write them - that he forgot to mention the name of the police constable who must surely have described Kosminski!


And you're the one who said that it was the police who knew that the suspect was Jewish before the witness even realised it!


And when are you going to get it, that the witness recognised and identified the suspect as the man he saw, and then he learned from the police that he was a jew?


(Your comment, # 255 11-02-2022, 07:06 PM)



Please do tell us what Kosminski looked like!

Was he blond or dark-haired?

It makes quite a difference, because only one of the suspects had blond hair - and he was the one in Mitre Square.

But it seems that you can't quite decide whether he was blond or dark-haired.


when you try to disprove Kosminski on the base of his appearance as a recognisable jew or that he was not 'blond' enough, without studying the case or even trying to know how his family looked like, then it is ignorance on your side.


(Your comment, #258 11-02-2022, 07:27 PM)


Or, more likely, confusion on your side, for at the same time that you complained that I said that Kosminski wasn't blond enough to have been the man seen in Mitre Square, you produced photographs of Kosminski's close relatives showing them with very dark hair!



You're the one who thinks it's possible that Kosminski could have looked like a sailor, or even have been a sailor:


And now he is implying that a sailor was not likely to have been a jew.


(Your comment, # 182 11-02-2022, 11:29 AM)


Is it a fact that there were Jewish sailors in Whitechapel in 1888?

Would you please share your evidence with us?

[The Baron]

Thats what I wrote

"And now he is implying that a sailor was not likely to have been a jew.

We all know that Kosminski's family were tailors, they may have made hundreds of hats in all different shapes and forms

Kosminki was able to dress the way he liked, if he wanted to look like a sailor, he could wear one of those, maybe he did that on purpose as a way to disguise, while he went to kill, and to avoid being recognised if anyone notice him, we know that the first question that would be asked, what did he look like, what was he wearing..."



The burden of proof is on you to show us why Kosminski couldn't have looked like a sailor, or couldn't have had a fair complexion.

What did he look like is something we don't know, and you cannot dismiss Kosminski based on your take on how he must have looked like.


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

That's what I meant when I said that the Whitechapel Murders case is shot through with anti-Semitism, or - to be more precise - anti-Jewish prejudice.

Elizabeth Long told police that she saw a man of Jewish appearance talking with Annie Chapman about half an hour before she was found dead nearby.

Home Office official Godfrey Lushington recorded that the fact that Stride's assailant shouted the word 'Lipski' confirmed his suspicion that the murderer was a Jew.

CID Officer Robert Sagar reported that a policeman saw a man of Jewish appearance leaving Mitre Square just before Catherine Eddowes' body was found there.

George Hutchinson told the police that he saw a man of Jewish appearance with Mary Kelly in the early hours of the morning on which she was murdered.

Robert Anderson writes in his memoirs that it was a definitely ascertained fact that the murderer was a Jew and the only reason he wasn't brought to justice was that a Jew would not testify against him.

Following the Hanbury St murder, there was a procession of young men who marched down that street, shouting that the Jews were responsible.

The next night that a murder was committed, a message chalked on a wall next to a bloody item of clothing, taken from one of the victims, declared that the Jews were responsible.

When you look at all the identification evidence, the only suspect who was seen with one of the victims at a time so proximate to the time of her murder that he must have been her murderer was a man who had fair hair and the appearance of a sailor.

Jews in the East End of London were not blond sailors.

And that's a fact.



P.S. A defence counsel barrister representing the blond sailor in question might have argued that his client ended his conversation with the woman shortly after they were seen together by Joseph Lawende, and that it must have been another man who met her shortly afterwards who was responsible for her murder.

That is hardly possible.

First, the fact that Lawende saw that the woman had one hand on the man's chest indicates that they were close to closing a deal.
It is most unlikely that he walked away.

Secondly, her body was found nine minutes later.

During that time, the murderer had to end his negotiations with her, walk with her into the Square, kill her, mutilate her, make nicks on her face, cut off part of her apron, wipe his knife on her apron, secrete her apron and knife on his person, and make his way out of the Square.

if someone else had come along, and arrived at the point in the negotiations that the previous man had reached, there would have been insufficient time remaining to do all the other things that we know the murderer did.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Thats what I wrote

"And now he is implying that a sailor was not likely to have been a jew.

We all know that Kosminski's family were tailors, they may have made hundreds of hats in all different shapes and forms

Kosminki was able to dress the way he liked, if he wanted to look like a sailor, he could wear one of those, maybe he did that on purpose as a way to disguise, while he went to kill, and to avoid being recognised if anyone notice him, we know that the first question that would be asked, what did he look like, what was he wearing..."



The burden of proof is on you to show us why Kosminski couldn't have looked like a sailor, or couldn't have had a fair complexion.

What did he look like is something we don't know, and you cannot dismiss Kosminski based on your take on how he must have looked like.


TB

Kosminki was able to dress the way he liked, if he wanted to look like a sailor, he could wear one of those, maybe he did that on purpose as a way to disguise, while he went to kill, and to avoid being recognised if anyone notice him, we know that the first question that would be asked, what did he look like, what was he wearing..."


You're not proceeding from the evidence; you're proceeding from your suspect.

You're saying that whatever the suspect seen by a witness looked like, Kosminski could have made himself look like him.


The burden of proof is on you to show us why Kosminski couldn't have looked like a sailor, or couldn't have had a fair complexion.


On the contrary, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Kosminski could have looked like a sailor and could have had fair hair.

Just putting on the kind of clothes that a sailor might have worn would not necessarily have made a Polish Jewish barber look like a sailor to an eyewitness.

So far, the only evidence you have produced is that Kosminski had dark hair.

[Pontius2000]

I too think that he wrote them, but that he had no first-hand knowledge of any identification.

His notes are no more reliable than MacNaghten's.

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.


and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

[Wickerman]

The author of that post is himself a BIG Macnaghten believer... the irony

And here we have another poster who thinks spotting Kosminski with Stride 15 Minutes before Schwarzt sighting is not important, that is if one accepted that the City PC referred to was Smith and no other, which is only an opinion.



TB

Here's another one who's never heard of 'play the ball, not the man'.
It demonstrates a weak argument.

[The Baron]

Here's another one who's never heard of 'play the ball, not the man'.
It demonstrates a weak argument.

You don't know who the City PC was, and trying to fit him in another Met witness from another scene.. this is a ball I don't like to play.


And turned a blind eye to what I posted

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB