Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.


and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation (Swanson) are no more reliable than those of someone (Macnaghten) who want even employed by the police department at the time

(Pontius2000 # 358)


Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior, yet he mentions nothing about any Id parade and in fact later exonerates Kosminski


(Trevor Marriott # 345)



You can't both be right.



You say I mentioned MacNaghten's memoirs, but I didn't.

I was referring to his Memorandum.


But now that you mention his memoirs:


In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melville_Macnaghten

So, we have both Swanson (1910 -24) and MacNaghten (1914) claiming that the murderer died not long after the murders stopped.

Anderson's son, in his biography of him, wrote that Anderson shared Swanson's view that the suspect was already dead at a time when Aaron Kosminski was not.

That means that Anderson, Swanson, and MacNaghten all believed that the murderer died long before Kosminski did.

How, then, if any of them are right, can Kosminski have been the murderer?




and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

(Pontius2000 # 358)




Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You don't know who the City PC was, and trying to fit him in another Met witness from another scene.. this is a ball I don't like to play.


And turned a blind eye to what I posted

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

I think what Wickerman wrote made perfect sense and I don't see how anyone could disagree, except for the sake of disagreeing.

As for your policeman seeing a Jewish suspect leaving Mitre Square, I do wonder how you are going to prove that the policeman was Jewish.

Jewish policemen were about as common in the City of London as fair-haired Jewish sailors.

[The Baron]

You realy need to try harder, no one here suggested that the jewish witness from the seaside home was the same as the City PC who saw Kosminski.

You live in your own world, full of blond sailors and delirious fabricators head police officers..


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You realy need to try harder, no one here suggested that the jewish witness from the seaside home was the same as the City PC who saw Kosminski.

You live in your own world, full of blond sailors and delirious fabricators head police officers..


TB

That suits me fine.

I thought the suggestion was being made that the man allegedly seen leaving Mitre Square was Kosminski.

Can I take it then that everyone agrees with me that he was not?

[The Baron]

Unbelievable!!!!


Let me make it easy to you, ok?

Kosminski was identified twice:

-One time by a jewish witness at the Seaside Home

-And second time by a City PC near Mitre Square


Is that clear enough?


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Unbelievable!!!!


Let me make it easy to you, ok?

Kosminski was identified twice:

y
-One time by a jewish witness at the Seaside Home

-And second time by a City PC near Mitre Square


Is that clear enough?


TB

Very clear.

Please explain why both Swanson and Anderson claimed that the only impediment to the prosecution of Kosminski / the Polish Jew was the refusal of a Jewish witness to testify against him, IF they had a police witness who saw him leaving the scene of one of the murders.

[The Baron]

As Macnaghten wrote "The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"

Strongly resembled the man may have been not enough to convict the suspect, AND, they have a better sighting from yet another witness who unhesitatingly identified him the moment he was confronted with him.

Anderson and Swanson were pretty sure they got the murderer, it is up to anyone to choose to believe them or not.



TB

[Pontius2000]

Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior, yet he mentions nothing about any Id parade and in fact later exonerates Kosminski


(Trevor Marriott # 345)


You can't both be right.

not only was Macnaghten NOT Swanson’s immediate superior in 1888, he wasn’t even working for the police in 1888. Macnaghten played no hand in the Whitechapel Murders investigation. Swanson was the lead officer over the investigation. Swanson’ immediate superior in 1888 was Anderson, and since Anderson was late to the game, Swanson’s immediate superior up to the double event was the incompetent Charles Warren.

You say I mentioned MacNaghten's memoirs, but I didn't.

I was referring to his Memorandum.

But now that you mention his memoirs:

In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.

Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

This is false and is of course another example of your taking a tiny tidbit and stretching it into something that may fit into your narrative. Here are the actual descriptions that were attributed to, or derived from, Lawende’s description to police:

- “Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft 9in in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak.”

- “age 30 ht 5 ft 7 or 8 in. Comp fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper and salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.”

- “Age 30 to 35. Height 5 ft 7in with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler, and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material.”


so you took these descriptions, which vary greatly (including one that plainly says the suspect had brown hair), and removed the tiny snippets “appearance of a sailor” and “fair moustache” and compounded those two snippets into: witness said the suspect was a blonde sailor. The witness said no such thing, not even close.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As Macnaghten wrote "The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"

Strongly resembled the man may have been not enough to convict the suspect, AND, they have a better sighting from yet another witness who unhesitatingly identified him the moment he was confronted with him.

Anderson and Swanson were pretty sure they got the murderer, it is up to anyone to choose to believe them or not.



TB

I see.

So, the 'fact' that 'Kosminski' 'strongly resembled' a man of Jewish appearance seen leaving Mitre Square by a policeman was not strong enough evidence to be used in court, but the evidence of another person who had NOT described Kosminski as being of Jewish appearance (otherwise he would not have come forward - and in any case, neither Lawende nor Schwarz mentioned any Jewish appearance nor said anything that could be taken to indicate that their suspects were Jewish) would have been strong enough to convict the suspect.

That is not credible.

And that's a fact.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

You'd have to assume this well-dressed man doesn't tally with Anderson's "low-class Polish Jew".

In London at that time, there would have been people of all sorts of shapes, sizes and looks: Eastern Europeans (not Jewish), Irish, Germans and so on; and then of course the indigenous people are hardly the Ayran race.

So, how exactly was it so easy to spot whether or not a well-dressed man was Jewish or otherwise? Perhaps some cultural historian could spot it, but a London copper or witness?

I've never been convinced by the marginalia nor by the idea that the WM was Jewish.

[The Baron]

I see.

So, the 'fact' that 'Kosminski' 'strongly resembled' a man of Jewish appearance seen leaving Mitre Square by a policeman was not strong enough evidence to be used in court, but the evidence of another person who had NOT described Kosminski as being of Jewish appearance (otherwise he would not have come forward - and in any case, neither Lawende nor Schwarz mentioned any Jewish appearance nor said anything that could be taken to indicate that their suspects were Jewish) would have been strong enough to convict the suspect.

That is not credible.

And that's a fact.

I see you are again running in circles..

NOT ALL OF US THINK LAWENDE WAS THE SEASSIDE HOME WITNESS

And if the City PC was able to recognize him of being a jew doesn't automatically means every single individual under the sky will be able to recognize this, you maybe have a certain belief how a jewish person must have looked like, but that is only in your mind and you world full of those blond sailors, describing persons will always be subjective, in the eye of the beholder, Levy said the man was 3in taller than Eddowes, Lawende said he was 9in taller.

You don't accept that, fine no problem, you are not alone.


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.



This is false and is of course another example of your taking a tiny tidbit and stretching it into something that may fit into your narrative. ”


so you took these descriptions ... and compounded those two snippets into: witness said the suspect was a blonde sailor. The witness said no such thing, not even close.

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.


You did:


it’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the whitechapel murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.

(Pontius2000, # 358)




and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

(Pontius2000 # 358)



Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

This is false ...

(Pontius2000 # 368)


You're splitting hairs.

Lawende said the man had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Blond sailors have fair hair and the appearance of sailors.

If someone has the appearance of a sailor, then someone saying so is giving a description of a sailor.

No-one has claimed that Lawende said the man was a sailor.
.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You'd have to assume this well-dressed man doesn't tally with Anderson's "low-class Polish Jew".

In London at that time, there would have been people of all sorts of shapes, sizes and looks: Eastern Europeans (not Jewish), Irish, Germans and so on; and then of course the indigenous people are hardly the Ayran race.

So, how exactly was it so easy to spot whether or not a well-dressed man was Jewish or otherwise? Perhaps some cultural historian could spot it, but a London copper or witness?

I've never been convinced by the marginalia nor by the idea that the WM was Jewish.

Pontius 2000 is suggesting that Kosminski was identified by both a policeman and a Jewish witness.

Lawende's sailor wore a pepper and salt coloured loose-fitting jacket and a reddish neckerchief.

That doesn't seem 'well-dressed'.

Schwarz's suspect seems like a well-drunk, coarse individual and doesn't fit the description, either.

It doesn't add up, but then nothing about the case against Kosminski ever does.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I see you are again running in circles..

NOT ALL OF US THINK LAWENDE WAS THE SEASSIDE HOME WITNESS

And if the City PC was able to recognize him of being a jew doesn't automatically means every single individual under the sky will be able to recognize this, you maybe have a certain belief how a jewish person must have looked like, but that is only in your mind and you world full of those blond sailors, describing persons will always be subjective, in the eye of the beholder, Levy said the man was 3in taller than Eddowes, Lawende said he was 9in taller.

You don't accept that, fine no problem, you are not alone.


TB

One has to ask the question: why would Kosminski have become a suspect in the first place?

He must have been of Jewish appearance; otherwise the alleged witness' alleged refusal to testify doesn't make sense.

Why would a person of Jewish appearance become a suspect?

If there were some conclusive or overwhelming forensic evidence, why would the whole case hinge upon an identification?

Where does the story about a policeman seeing a Jewish man leaving Mitre Square come from?

It comes from the idea that a Jewish suspect is going to look Jewish because otherwise you wouldn't know that the murderer was Jewish.

Yet we are being asked to believe that the crucial witness had come forward without having recognised Kosminski as being Jewish.

It is not believable.

It is so far-fetched that an author here has suggested that Kosminski may have dressed up for the identification by wearing Jewish religious garb or speaking Yiddish.

This is a man who obviously was a man of extreme cunning, giving his pursuers the slip, escaping from Berner St and Mitre Square just as he was about to be caught.

But when he is cornered and needs to avoid being identified, he makes himself look Jewish - something he certainly didn't do in Mitre Square or Berner Street.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Pontius 2000 is suggesting that Kosminski was identified by both a policeman and a Jewish witness.

Lawende's sailor wore a pepper and salt coloured loose-fitting jacket and a reddish neckerchief.

That doesn't seem 'well-dressed'.

Schwarz's suspect seems like a well-drunk, coarse individual and doesn't fit the description, either.

It doesn't add up, but then nothing about the case against Kosminski ever does.

Well, the prospect of Kosminski being fair is pretty slim.

Not much in the whole case adds up, probably a mixture of missing documents and witnesses being economical with the truth.

I'm not convinced with Schwartz. The only witnesses I place faith in are PC Smith and Lawende/associates, but then I'm not convinced Lawende saw Catherine and her murderer.