Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[Fleetwood Mac]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

You'd have to assume this well-dressed man doesn't tally with Anderson's "low-class Polish Jew".

In London at that time, there would have been people of all sorts of shapes, sizes and looks: Eastern Europeans (not Jewish), Irish, Germans and so on; and then of course the indigenous people are hardly the Ayran race.

So, how exactly was it so easy to spot whether or not a well-dressed man was Jewish or otherwise? Perhaps some cultural historian could spot it, but a London copper or witness?

I've never been convinced by the marginalia nor by the idea that the WM was Jewish.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As Macnaghten wrote "The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"

Strongly resembled the man may have been not enough to convict the suspect, AND, they have a better sighting from yet another witness who unhesitatingly identified him the moment he was confronted with him.

Anderson and Swanson were pretty sure they got the murderer, it is up to anyone to choose to believe them or not.



TB

I see.

So, the 'fact' that 'Kosminski' 'strongly resembled' a man of Jewish appearance seen leaving Mitre Square by a policeman was not strong enough evidence to be used in court, but the evidence of another person who had NOT described Kosminski as being of Jewish appearance (otherwise he would not have come forward - and in any case, neither Lawende nor Schwarz mentioned any Jewish appearance nor said anything that could be taken to indicate that their suspects were Jewish) would have been strong enough to convict the suspect.

That is not credible.

And that's a fact.

[Pontius2000]

Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior, yet he mentions nothing about any Id parade and in fact later exonerates Kosminski


(Trevor Marriott # 345)


You can't both be right.

not only was Macnaghten NOT Swanson’s immediate superior in 1888, he wasn’t even working for the police in 1888. Macnaghten played no hand in the Whitechapel Murders investigation. Swanson was the lead officer over the investigation. Swanson’ immediate superior in 1888 was Anderson, and since Anderson was late to the game, Swanson’s immediate superior up to the double event was the incompetent Charles Warren.

You say I mentioned MacNaghten's memoirs, but I didn't.

I was referring to his Memorandum.

But now that you mention his memoirs:

In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.

Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

This is false and is of course another example of your taking a tiny tidbit and stretching it into something that may fit into your narrative. Here are the actual descriptions that were attributed to, or derived from, Lawende’s description to police:

- “Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft 9in in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak.”

- “age 30 ht 5 ft 7 or 8 in. Comp fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper and salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.”

- “Age 30 to 35. Height 5 ft 7in with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler, and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material.”


so you took these descriptions, which vary greatly (including one that plainly says the suspect had brown hair), and removed the tiny snippets “appearance of a sailor” and “fair moustache” and compounded those two snippets into: witness said the suspect was a blonde sailor. The witness said no such thing, not even close.

[The Baron]

As Macnaghten wrote "The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square"

Strongly resembled the man may have been not enough to convict the suspect, AND, they have a better sighting from yet another witness who unhesitatingly identified him the moment he was confronted with him.

Anderson and Swanson were pretty sure they got the murderer, it is up to anyone to choose to believe them or not.



TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Unbelievable!!!!


Let me make it easy to you, ok?

Kosminski was identified twice:

y
-One time by a jewish witness at the Seaside Home

-And second time by a City PC near Mitre Square


Is that clear enough?


TB

Very clear.

Please explain why both Swanson and Anderson claimed that the only impediment to the prosecution of Kosminski / the Polish Jew was the refusal of a Jewish witness to testify against him, IF they had a police witness who saw him leaving the scene of one of the murders.

[The Baron]

Unbelievable!!!!


Let me make it easy to you, ok?

Kosminski was identified twice:

-One time by a jewish witness at the Seaside Home

-And second time by a City PC near Mitre Square


Is that clear enough?


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You realy need to try harder, no one here suggested that the jewish witness from the seaside home was the same as the City PC who saw Kosminski.

You live in your own world, full of blond sailors and delirious fabricators head police officers..


TB

That suits me fine.

I thought the suggestion was being made that the man allegedly seen leaving Mitre Square was Kosminski.

Can I take it then that everyone agrees with me that he was not?

[The Baron]

You realy need to try harder, no one here suggested that the jewish witness from the seaside home was the same as the City PC who saw Kosminski.

You live in your own world, full of blond sailors and delirious fabricators head police officers..


TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You don't know who the City PC was, and trying to fit him in another Met witness from another scene.. this is a ball I don't like to play.


And turned a blind eye to what I posted

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

I think what Wickerman wrote made perfect sense and I don't see how anyone could disagree, except for the sake of disagreeing.

As for your policeman seeing a Jewish suspect leaving Mitre Square, I do wonder how you are going to prove that the policeman was Jewish.

Jewish policemen were about as common in the City of London as fair-haired Jewish sailors.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.


and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation (Swanson) are no more reliable than those of someone (Macnaghten) who want even employed by the police department at the time

(Pontius2000 # 358)


Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior, yet he mentions nothing about any Id parade and in fact later exonerates Kosminski


(Trevor Marriott # 345)



You can't both be right.



You say I mentioned MacNaghten's memoirs, but I didn't.

I was referring to his Memorandum.


But now that you mention his memoirs:


In his memoir, Macnaghten claimed that information received "some years after" the final murder of 1888 led him to the belief that Jack the Ripper was a man who had taken his own life at the end of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melville_Macnaghten

So, we have both Swanson (1910 -24) and MacNaghten (1914) claiming that the murderer died not long after the murders stopped.

Anderson's son, in his biography of him, wrote that Anderson shared Swanson's view that the suspect was already dead at a time when Aaron Kosminski was not.

That means that Anderson, Swanson, and MacNaghten all believed that the murderer died long before Kosminski did.

How, then, if any of them are right, can Kosminski have been the murderer?




and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

(Pontius2000 # 358)




Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

[The Baron]

Here's another one who's never heard of 'play the ball, not the man'.
It demonstrates a weak argument.

You don't know who the City PC was, and trying to fit him in another Met witness from another scene.. this is a ball I don't like to play.


And turned a blind eye to what I posted

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

[Wickerman]

The author of that post is himself a BIG Macnaghten believer... the irony

And here we have another poster who thinks spotting Kosminski with Stride 15 Minutes before Schwarzt sighting is not important, that is if one accepted that the City PC referred to was Smith and no other, which is only an opinion.



TB

Here's another one who's never heard of 'play the ball, not the man'.
It demonstrates a weak argument.

[Pontius2000]

I too think that he wrote them, but that he had no first-hand knowledge of any identification.

His notes are no more reliable than MacNaghten's.

It’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the Whitechapel Murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.


and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Thats what I wrote

"And now he is implying that a sailor was not likely to have been a jew.

We all know that Kosminski's family were tailors, they may have made hundreds of hats in all different shapes and forms

Kosminki was able to dress the way he liked, if he wanted to look like a sailor, he could wear one of those, maybe he did that on purpose as a way to disguise, while he went to kill, and to avoid being recognised if anyone notice him, we know that the first question that would be asked, what did he look like, what was he wearing..."



The burden of proof is on you to show us why Kosminski couldn't have looked like a sailor, or couldn't have had a fair complexion.

What did he look like is something we don't know, and you cannot dismiss Kosminski based on your take on how he must have looked like.


TB

Kosminki was able to dress the way he liked, if he wanted to look like a sailor, he could wear one of those, maybe he did that on purpose as a way to disguise, while he went to kill, and to avoid being recognised if anyone notice him, we know that the first question that would be asked, what did he look like, what was he wearing..."


You're not proceeding from the evidence; you're proceeding from your suspect.

You're saying that whatever the suspect seen by a witness looked like, Kosminski could have made himself look like him.


The burden of proof is on you to show us why Kosminski couldn't have looked like a sailor, or couldn't have had a fair complexion.


On the contrary, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Kosminski could have looked like a sailor and could have had fair hair.

Just putting on the kind of clothes that a sailor might have worn would not necessarily have made a Polish Jewish barber look like a sailor to an eyewitness.

So far, the only evidence you have produced is that Kosminski had dark hair.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Robert Sagar wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."


TB

That's what I meant when I said that the Whitechapel Murders case is shot through with anti-Semitism, or - to be more precise - anti-Jewish prejudice.

Elizabeth Long told police that she saw a man of Jewish appearance talking with Annie Chapman about half an hour before she was found dead nearby.

Home Office official Godfrey Lushington recorded that the fact that Stride's assailant shouted the word 'Lipski' confirmed his suspicion that the murderer was a Jew.

CID Officer Robert Sagar reported that a policeman saw a man of Jewish appearance leaving Mitre Square just before Catherine Eddowes' body was found there.

George Hutchinson told the police that he saw a man of Jewish appearance with Mary Kelly in the early hours of the morning on which she was murdered.

Robert Anderson writes in his memoirs that it was a definitely ascertained fact that the murderer was a Jew and the only reason he wasn't brought to justice was that a Jew would not testify against him.

Following the Hanbury St murder, there was a procession of young men who marched down that street, shouting that the Jews were responsible.

The next night that a murder was committed, a message chalked on a wall next to a bloody item of clothing, taken from one of the victims, declared that the Jews were responsible.

When you look at all the identification evidence, the only suspect who was seen with one of the victims at a time so proximate to the time of her murder that he must have been her murderer was a man who had fair hair and the appearance of a sailor.

Jews in the East End of London were not blond sailors.

And that's a fact.



P.S. A defence counsel barrister representing the blond sailor in question might have argued that his client ended his conversation with the woman shortly after they were seen together by Joseph Lawende, and that it must have been another man who met her shortly afterwards who was responsible for her murder.

That is hardly possible.

First, the fact that Lawende saw that the woman had one hand on the man's chest indicates that they were close to closing a deal.
It is most unlikely that he walked away.

Secondly, her body was found nine minutes later.

During that time, the murderer had to end his negotiations with her, walk with her into the Square, kill her, mutilate her, make nicks on her face, cut off part of her apron, wipe his knife on her apron, secrete her apron and knife on his person, and make his way out of the Square.

if someone else had come along, and arrived at the point in the negotiations that the previous man had reached, there would have been insufficient time remaining to do all the other things that we know the murderer did.