Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[Elamarna]

Yet another example of the condescension to which I've become accustomed since I started posting here!

I shan't complain about it because when I do, I get told that I'm playing the victim.

By all means, let us discuss the basic information of the case.


I cited the figure of 30 minutes based on reports that Smith's sighting of Stride took place at 12:30.

In his testimony, Smith was ambiguous about the timing and indicated that it could have been 25 minutes or 30 minutes.

Once again, you're splitting hairs.



The 10 minutes turned to 3 minutes

How about you start by reading the basic information of the case first?



I really do not know how you could make such a basic mistake about the evidence.

Having made such a bad mistake, you then say that I am the one of us two who doesn't know what he's talking about.


Lawende's sighting took place at 1.35.

Pc Watkins found the body at 1.44.

I assumed that the murderer started to leave the square at 1.42.

It is difficult to believe that he murdered the woman, mutilated her, nicked her face with his knife, cut off part of her apron, wiped his knife on the apron, put the knife away, and put the apron somewhere in his clothing, in less than four minutes.

That gives a time of death of about 1.38.

1.38 a.m. minus 1.35 a.m. equals three minutes, which is what I wrote.

Your figure of 10 minutes is plainly impossible, as it would mean that Eddowes was murdered after Watkins found her body - a logical impossibility.

I am not intending to be condesnding here, but why are you still using these timings, set to the minute?
Timing simply was not that syncronizied in 1888.
In the whole of the C5 murders only TWO times are Syncronizied, those of Lawende and Levy( they used the same clock in the Imperial Club). And their timing CANNOT be synchronised to the Time stated by Watkins.
What looks like a 3 minute gap, could easily be at least double that.

Be more flexible, that's all I am asking here.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I do hope you are not questioning the fact that Macnaghten was not in the police during the investigation, and that you have written that reply not intending that?

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the man who was appointed Assistant Chief Constable in June 1889 and Chief Constable in 1890 had any connection with the Metropolitan Police or Scotland Yard.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The 25 minutes turned to 30 minutes

The 10 minutes turned to 3 minutes

How about you start by reading the basic information of the case first?


TB

Yet another example of the condescension to which I've become accustomed since I started posting here!

I shan't complain about it because when I do, I get told that I'm playing the victim.

By all means, let us discuss the basic information of the case.


I cited the figure of 30 minutes based on reports that Smith's sighting of Stride took place at 12:30.

In his testimony, Smith was ambiguous about the timing and indicated that it could have been 25 minutes or 30 minutes.

Once again, you're splitting hairs.



The 10 minutes turned to 3 minutes

How about you start by reading the basic information of the case first?



I really do not know how you could make such a basic mistake about the evidence.

Having made such a bad mistake, you then say that I am the one of us two who doesn't know what he's talking about.


Lawende's sighting took place at 1.35.

Pc Watkins found the body at 1.44.

I assumed that the murderer started to leave the square at 1.42.

It is difficult to believe that he murdered the woman, mutilated her, nicked her face with his knife, cut off part of her apron, wiped his knife on the apron, put the knife away, and put the apron somewhere in his clothing, in less than four minutes.

That gives a time of death of about 1.38.

1.38 a.m. minus 1.35 a.m. equals three minutes, which is what I wrote.

Your figure of 10 minutes is plainly impossible, as it would mean that Eddowes was murdered after Watkins found her body - a logical impossibility.

[Elamarna]

The person who according to you 'wasn't even working in the Police Department' claimed he knew what happened to the murderer.

He didn't claim that he just heard it on the grapevine in his local pub.

I do hope you are not questioning the fact that Macnaghten was not in the police during the investigation, and that you have written that reply not intending that?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

it is amazing that you are sticking with this blonde sailor nonsense and ignoring the description in which the suspect was stated to have BROWN HAIR.


And again, why not you offer up an explanation to your statement that the lead officer in the case is no more than someone who wasn’t even working in the police department at the time of the murders?

You can split hairs about the difference between the words 'description' and 'appearance', but I am the one writing 'nonsense' when I cite the witness evidence?

Lawende said the man had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Whenever I mention the word sailor, all hell lets loose, as if the witness had never mentioned a sailor!

I have never come across any version of Lawende's description of the suspect in which the suspect had brown hair.

The person who according to you 'wasn't even working in the Police Department' claimed he knew what happened to the murderer.

He didn't claim that he just heard it on the grapevine in his local pub.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well, again, something doesn't add up here.

PC Smith stated his beat took him 25 to 30 minutes and he returned to Berner Street at 1am.

Diemschutz claims to have timed his arrival by the baker's clock at 1am.

Yet PC Smith did not see nor hear all of the running around in the street upon Diemschutz discovering Liz's body.

At least one of them has their time out.

It is possible that PC Smith returned to Berner Street later than 1am, which would have him passing Liz and the man around 12:40 to 12:45.

On the other hand, it's possible that Diemschutz had his time out.

I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." ... I do not remember that I passed any person on my way down.

(From Pc Smith's testimony)


The Commercial Road corner of Berner Street was at the further end of Berner Street relative to the murder site, meaning presumably that Smith's beat took him southwards on Berner Street.

That suggests that the murderer did not escape northwards, and possibly that he knew Smith was on his way.


How the murderer escaped:

A Juror; Was it possible for anybody to leave the yard between the discovery of the body and the arrival of the police?
Pc Smith: Oh, yes - or, rather, it would have been possible before I informed the members of the club, not afterwards.
[Coroner] When you entered the yard, if any person had run out you would have seen them in the dark? - Oh, yes, it was light enough for that. It was dark in the gateway, but not so dark further in the yard.

[The Baron]

Pc Smith saw Stride with a man about 30 minutes before she was murdered.

Lawende saw Eddowes with a man about 3 minutes before she was murdered.

Not much of a contest.

The 25 minutes turned to 30 minutes

The 10 minutes turned to 3 minutes

How about you start by reading the basic information of the case first?


TB

[Pontius2000]

You're splitting hairs.

Lawende said the man had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Blond sailors have fair hair and the appearance of sailors.

If someone has the appearance of a sailor, then someone saying so is giving a description of a sailor.

No-one has claimed that Lawende said the man was a sailor.
.

it is amazing that you are sticking with this blonde sailor nonsense and ignoring the description in which the suspect was stated to have BROWN HAIR.


And again, why not you offer up an explanation to your statement that the lead officer in the case is no more than someone who wasn’t even working in the police department at the time of the murders?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Pc Smith saw Stride with a man about 30 minutes before she was murdered.

Lawende saw Eddowes with a man about 3 minutes before she was murdered.

Not much of a contest.

Well, again, something doesn't add up here.

PC Smith stated his beat took him 25 to 30 minutes and he returned to Berner Street at 1am.

Diemschutz claims to have timed his arrival by the baker's clock at 1am.

Yet PC Smith did not see nor hear all of the running around in the street upon Diemschutz discovering Liz's body.

At least one of them has their time out.

It is possible that PC Smith returned to Berner Street later than 1am, which would have him passing Liz and the man around 12:40 to 12:45.

On the other hand, it's possible that Diemschutz had his time out.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well, the prospect of Kosminski being fair is pretty slim.

Not much in the whole case adds up, probably a mixture of missing documents and witnesses being economical with the truth.

I'm not convinced with Schwartz. The only witnesses I place faith in are PC Smith and Lawende/associates, but then I'm not convinced Lawende saw Catherine and her murderer.

Pc Smith saw Stride with a man about 30 minutes before she was murdered.

Lawende saw Eddowes with a man about 3 minutes before she was murdered.

Not much of a contest.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Pontius 2000 is suggesting that Kosminski was identified by both a policeman and a Jewish witness.

Lawende's sailor wore a pepper and salt coloured loose-fitting jacket and a reddish neckerchief.

That doesn't seem 'well-dressed'.

Schwarz's suspect seems like a well-drunk, coarse individual and doesn't fit the description, either.

It doesn't add up, but then nothing about the case against Kosminski ever does.

Well, the prospect of Kosminski being fair is pretty slim.

Not much in the whole case adds up, probably a mixture of missing documents and witnesses being economical with the truth.

I'm not convinced with Schwartz. The only witnesses I place faith in are PC Smith and Lawende/associates, but then I'm not convinced Lawende saw Catherine and her murderer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I see you are again running in circles..

NOT ALL OF US THINK LAWENDE WAS THE SEASSIDE HOME WITNESS

And if the City PC was able to recognize him of being a jew doesn't automatically means every single individual under the sky will be able to recognize this, you maybe have a certain belief how a jewish person must have looked like, but that is only in your mind and you world full of those blond sailors, describing persons will always be subjective, in the eye of the beholder, Levy said the man was 3in taller than Eddowes, Lawende said he was 9in taller.

You don't accept that, fine no problem, you are not alone.


TB

One has to ask the question: why would Kosminski have become a suspect in the first place?

He must have been of Jewish appearance; otherwise the alleged witness' alleged refusal to testify doesn't make sense.

Why would a person of Jewish appearance become a suspect?

If there were some conclusive or overwhelming forensic evidence, why would the whole case hinge upon an identification?

Where does the story about a policeman seeing a Jewish man leaving Mitre Square come from?

It comes from the idea that a Jewish suspect is going to look Jewish because otherwise you wouldn't know that the murderer was Jewish.

Yet we are being asked to believe that the crucial witness had come forward without having recognised Kosminski as being Jewish.

It is not believable.

It is so far-fetched that an author here has suggested that Kosminski may have dressed up for the identification by wearing Jewish religious garb or speaking Yiddish.

This is a man who obviously was a man of extreme cunning, giving his pursuers the slip, escaping from Berner St and Mitre Square just as he was about to be caught.

But when he is cornered and needs to avoid being identified, he makes himself look Jewish - something he certainly didn't do in Mitre Square or Berner Street.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You'd have to assume this well-dressed man doesn't tally with Anderson's "low-class Polish Jew".

In London at that time, there would have been people of all sorts of shapes, sizes and looks: Eastern Europeans (not Jewish), Irish, Germans and so on; and then of course the indigenous people are hardly the Ayran race.

So, how exactly was it so easy to spot whether or not a well-dressed man was Jewish or otherwise? Perhaps some cultural historian could spot it, but a London copper or witness?

I've never been convinced by the marginalia nor by the idea that the WM was Jewish.

Pontius 2000 is suggesting that Kosminski was identified by both a policeman and a Jewish witness.

Lawende's sailor wore a pepper and salt coloured loose-fitting jacket and a reddish neckerchief.

That doesn't seem 'well-dressed'.

Schwarz's suspect seems like a well-drunk, coarse individual and doesn't fit the description, either.

It doesn't add up, but then nothing about the case against Kosminski ever does.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.



This is false and is of course another example of your taking a tiny tidbit and stretching it into something that may fit into your narrative. ”


so you took these descriptions ... and compounded those two snippets into: witness said the suspect was a blonde sailor. The witness said no such thing, not even close.

you are apparently responding to someone else here, I’ve made no mention at all of Macnaghten’s memoirs.


You did:


it’s interesting that you think the reminiscences of the head of the whitechapel murders investigation are no more reliable than those of someone who want even employed by the police department at the time.

(Pontius2000, # 358)




and why are you keeping on about a blonde sailor? No description by any witness describes a blonde sailor.

(Pontius2000 # 358)



Lawende describes a man who had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Most people would accept that he did describe a blond sailor.

To suggest otherwise would be facetious.

This is false ...

(Pontius2000 # 368)


You're splitting hairs.

Lawende said the man had a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

Blond sailors have fair hair and the appearance of sailors.

If someone has the appearance of a sailor, then someone saying so is giving a description of a sailor.

No-one has claimed that Lawende said the man was a sailor.
.

[The Baron]

I see.

So, the 'fact' that 'Kosminski' 'strongly resembled' a man of Jewish appearance seen leaving Mitre Square by a policeman was not strong enough evidence to be used in court, but the evidence of another person who had NOT described Kosminski as being of Jewish appearance (otherwise he would not have come forward - and in any case, neither Lawende nor Schwarz mentioned any Jewish appearance nor said anything that could be taken to indicate that their suspects were Jewish) would have been strong enough to convict the suspect.

That is not credible.

And that's a fact.

I see you are again running in circles..

NOT ALL OF US THINK LAWENDE WAS THE SEASSIDE HOME WITNESS

And if the City PC was able to recognize him of being a jew doesn't automatically means every single individual under the sky will be able to recognize this, you maybe have a certain belief how a jewish person must have looked like, but that is only in your mind and you world full of those blond sailors, describing persons will always be subjective, in the eye of the beholder, Levy said the man was 3in taller than Eddowes, Lawende said he was 9in taller.

You don't accept that, fine no problem, you are not alone.


TB