Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

This is a response to the thread “Possibility for the Seaside Home”. I started to just post it there. But that thread is over 3 years old and hasn’t had a response in that long. Plus, it already had 17 pages of posts. So I’m just starting a new topic instead. Mods can do with it what they want.

3+ year old thread, but ima resurrect it here. I’ve read all 17 pages today, so why not? The thread is a lot of speculation (which of course is what all or most JtR discussions are), so I’m gonna do some speculating of my own:

**even though it’s possible that police discovered Kosminski independently, such as through door to door searches, I speculate that the most likely reason he came to their attention was because of a family member. The family member may have come forward because (a) they were afraid for their own safety, or (b) they actually had a conscience and didn’t want to see other people butchered, or (c) they felt he would inevitably be caught and when it happened, it would bring great shame and possibly even violence against their family. Likely, it was (d) a combination of all three options. These things have already been speculated by many others.


**from the information received, and probably more likely from the viciousness of the MJK murder and the outrage and panic it caused, the police had to follow all plausible leads. And one of those plausible leads was Kosminski. And I speculate that the police followed Kosminski for at least a month and a half. I also believe they probably had other tidbits of information and evidence that lead them to Kosminski, but that would be wild speculation. I do speculate though that from what they gathered from following Kosminski, many police officials did agree with the family member that he was a likely suspect. The idea that Kosminski was followed by police has of course been speculated by many many others.


**knowing that he was very likely the killer and very close to being caught, I speculate that the family had Kosminski put in a private asylum, probably somewhere between January and March 1889. There of course is no official record of this, but many such records have been lost. Many people have speculated that Kosminski was placed in private asylums before he ever went to Colney Hatch.


**Now that Kosminski was in an asylum, the police wanted an identification. This isn’t really even speculation…we know the police wanted SOMEBODY identified, and we know that according to the marginalia that this somebody was apparently Kosminski. We just don’t know exactly when and where it occurred.


now, the following points are why I resurrected this thread, because these are the things I HAVEN’T seen speculated:


**Many arrogant modern ripperologists would have us believe that Victorian era police were little more than a bunch bumbling buffoons who wouldn’t know investigating from a hole in the wall. This is something I’ve always found odd since Scotland Yard was considered the greatest police force in the world. But contrary to this arrogant modern interpretation, I think contemporary police of the time knew a thing or three about policing and psychology. I speculate that in light of the details of the murders (particularly, the most recent MJK killing), the police knew full well- without ever having set eyes on JtR- that they were dealing with an insane person who would NEVER be convicted or hanged.


**so knowing beforehand that JtR would never be convicted, why would the police still want to attempt an identification? I speculate that it wasn’t for evidence for court or a conviction, but simply because they wanted to be as sure as they possibly could be that they had their man and that the panic was truly over.


**now they brought him “with difficulty” to be identified at the seaside home (wherever that was). I speculate that the “difficulty” was that the family did not trust the police or did not understand British law regarding culpability. The police surely knew that JtR could not be convicted, but it probably took a lot of convincing for the family to understand that. It’s also possible that the family had doctors advising them not to cooperate with the police. Whatever convincing it took either the family or less likely, the doctors (and probably not Kosminski himself) someone finally agreed, after the “difficulty” to let the identification process go forward.


**the witness, probably Lawende, was brought forward and either verbally or through his actions indicated that Kosminski was the man. I speculate that like the family (or doctors), the witness also had great doubts that his identification would not be used as evidence to execute Kosminski (a fellow Jew). The police could’ve probably twisted the witness’s arm as they had the family’s (or doctors), but what would have been the point? They already fully understood that he could not be convicted, so what did it really matter whether not he was willing to go on official record identifying JtR? After all, I speculate at this point they only wanted to ensure that the panic was over, not to get a conviction.


**others in this thread say there’s too much wrong with this and bring into question that any such identification process even took place because it would’ve been against established protocol and would not have been admissible in court. I say this is total malarkey. The admissibility in court wouldn’t even have mattered because as I’ve already stated, the police were smart enough to understand that JtR was unconvictable. Again, I speculate that they didn’t do the identification process for evidence for court, but rather for peace of mind that the killing was over.


**others in the thread have asked, if this identification process actually happened, then why wasit not more well known or documented? I do speculate that only a small number of important police officials- Anderson and Swanson among them- would’ve known about this. Why? Because as other posters in this thread have pointed out, it was not “by the book” and was against protocol. There’s no point in letting the public or your colleagues know that you’re breaking protocol for something that wouldn’t be allowed in court. And I speculate that they wanted this identification to be as far off the record as possible in case Kosminski had a “miraculous recovery” from his illness and was set back out on the streets again. If and when that happened, rather than having a well documented identification that would’ve been inadmissible, they could’ve started back a more “by the book” investigation on Kosminski and gone about trying to get the witness to make a more “on the record” identification.


**some have speculated that because of the public’s anger at the police not solving the case, there’s no way the police would’ve simply sat on the knowledge that they had solved the crime. I Don’t believe this. As much anger as there was about not catching the killer, I speculate there would have been even MORE ANGER if the public knew that the suspect was caught and sitting in an asylum rather than being punished or even publicly identified. As satisfying as it would’ve been to let the public know that the crimes were solved, I speculate that the police were wise enough to know that airing that would’ve brought scrutiny as to JtRs identity and thus potential trouble for his family and possibly the whole Jewish community.


As for why several police officials thought Kosminski died soon after being put in asylum, we don’t know, but the answer could be quite simple. Upon incarceration, the murderous but seemingly more docile Kosminski who died in 1919 may well have been mistaken for the seemingly more dangerous Cohen who died in 1889. And it could’ve been as simple as:

Constable at Colney Hatch for some random reason in 1890-1891: “say, how’s the crazy Jew that you’re holding for us?”

Colney Hatch worker: “what crazy Jew? Oh, thaat crazy Jew. Yeah, he died last year.”

Constable to Swanson: “hey, they told me that Jack the Ripper died last year.”

Or it simply could’ve been that Swanson thought Kosminski had died when in fact, he had simply been moved to Leavesden.

or, it could’ve been many other reasons. Including bad memory. But I guess that speculation for another thread.

I think it's obvious that the whole case against Kosminski was dreamed up.
Anderson was known to be a fantasist.
Swanson's notes and marginalia are wrong in almost every detail.

The whole idea of a Jewish witness refusing to testify against a fellow Jew and that that caused the case against Kosminski to collapse is unbelievable.
If a Jewish witness had been unwilling to testify against a fellow Jew, then he wouldn't have gone to the police in the first place!

Moreover, it is far fetched that the conviction of the Whitechapel Murderer would have depended upon an eyewitness testifying in court!
Finally, there is no credible candidate for the claimed witness because Lawende would have been willing to testify, as he later did for the prosecution in the murder trial of a fellow Jew, but in any case said he would not be able to recognise the man if he saw him again. And Schwarz did not in fact see the murderer; he saw someone else!

There are certain things about Kosminski that rule him out as a serious suspect and they are never mentioned by the people who say he was the murderer.

The murderer was extremely quick and streetwise.
He obviously knew the police officers' beats off by heart and if he was somewhere near an officer's beat, he did not approach a woman until the officer had passed, timing everything so that he could get away before the officer's return.

He obviously had experience of cutting up animals and was able to work incredibly quickly.

Like some other psychopaths, he obviously had social skills and knew how to persuade a prostitute to go with him.

Kosminski was an imbecilic schizophrenic who was obviously completely unworldly and slow-witted, is not actually known ever to have associated with prostitutes, had never been a butcher or slaughterer, and couldn't speak English.

Do you think he could have chatted up Catherine Eddowes in English, persuaded her to go with him - a man who used to eat from the gutter - into a dark area of a square, murdered and mutilated her, cut off her apron and evaded capture by the police, all in the space of about 10 minutes?

[Varqm]

Lawende and co. couldn't identify the man again so they were not valid witnesses as far as identification.Schwartz had nothing to do with the case.
You would not think they would mention or insinuate that a family member informed them about Kosminski and it was because of so and so he was probably or was JTR? And instead keep repeating about the masturbation,etc .?And even after more than a decade after 1888?

[Varqm]

you seem to be assuming that they were vague on Kosminski because they had nothing on Kosminski. I am pointing out that this vagueness was not toward Kosminski only, they were all generally vague in their memoirs both on the deatails and towards all suspects. As far as the witness, I would guess one from the double event, either Lawende or one of his friends, or less likely Schwartz. But it could’ve been virtually anyone now lost to history because as I said, probably 95% of the file is gone. I could certainly see a situation where someone, like a family member, came to Anderson or Swanson in great confidence and seeing that a conviction would never be obtained, they chose out of discretion to keep it as far off the record as possible. Possibly even Abberline himself didn’t even know about it. Though I don’t think ONLY Anderson/Swanson knew about it, there are certainly plausible reasons why all of Scotland Yard didn’t know about the identification.

If they believe Kosminski was JTR,if they knew what really constituted as evidence against a serial killer, masturbation and eating from the gutter,even attacking sister with a knife,would not have been mentioned solely as the basis.It meant their knowledge about dealing with a aerial killer was at it's infancy,it was1888 after all.

[Pontius2000]

You are assuming they were vague and had something against Kosminski.They have had chances to write about it but it's all they wrote i.e. the evidence I mentioned.All those files may contain nothing more substantial about Kosminski.
They were not liars but based on the evidence I mentioned, they believed they were enough to make Kosminski a suspect or better than anybody else.
I do not think they were vague,this was in 1888 and their first serial killer of this kind.And who was the witness who could identify JTR? Abberline and Henry Smith believed the police did not have anything against anybody.

you seem to be assuming that they were vague on Kosminski because they had nothing on Kosminski. I am pointing out that this vagueness was not toward Kosminski only, they were all generally vague in their memoirs both on the deatails and towards all suspects. As far as the witness, I would guess one from the double event, either Lawende or one of his friends, or less likely Schwartz. But it could’ve been virtually anyone now lost to history because as I said, probably 95% of the file is gone. I could certainly see a situation where someone, like a family member, came to Anderson or Swanson in great confidence and seeing that a conviction would never be obtained, they chose out of discretion to keep it as far off the record as possible. Possibly even Abberline himself didn’t even know about it. Though I don’t think ONLY Anderson/Swanson knew about it, there are certainly plausible reasons why all of Scotland Yard didn’t know about the identification.

[Varqm]

all of the police were vague and did not go into many details on the crimes or suspects when writing their memoirs. It’s not like they were only vague in discussing Kosminski, they were vague when discussing ALL the suspects. We only have a small fraction of the original JtR case file and evidence. So the fact that probably 95% of it is missing and likely lost forever is NOT proof in any way that “they had nothing against Kosminski”. I imagine they had plenty more against him than we will ever know. But not knowing what they did or didn’t have, I can 100% assure you that they didn’t waste their time following him because he masturbated- an act that pretty much every human in existence has done- or because he was unclean, or mentally ill, or whatever. There were solid reasons that he was a prime suspect, and yes they were frustratingly vague. As far as witnesses and who were good witnesses and who weren’t, multiple people saw JtR on the night of the double event and apparently on the night of the MJK murder. Many others DID see him too. Many probably never realized it and perhaps other did realize it later on. But unless we are going to just assume that Swanson/Anderson we’re liars- which I certainly will not- SOMEONE did apparently make som sort of identification of some suspect.

You are assuming they were vague and had something against Kosminski.They have had chances to write about it but it's all they wrote i.e. the evidence I mentioned.All those files may contain nothing more substantial about Kosminski.
They were not liars but based on the evidence I mentioned, they believed they were enough to make Kosminski a suspect or better than anybody else.
I do not think they were vague,this was in 1888 and their first serial killer of this kind.And who was the witness who could identify JTR? Abberline and Henry Smith believed the police did not have anything against anybody.

[Pontius2000]

Over and over again the police memoirs keep repeating the evidence against Kosminski was masturbation,attack against sister with a knife,but I don't think it injured her sister gravely if at all,eating from the gutter,wandering at night.It's not really much at all.
Anderson was vague about the witness reaction,was it verbally said that the witness could identify the suspect ,what was said,or was it just his reading of the reaction of the witness.Since he could not write the exact words or close to it used by the witness it must have been only a read.
Also read the inquests,only Cox said she could identify the man again,maybe Liz Long,both woman.So whoever was the witness,a man, was invalid as a witness.
It was not the police competence but they had nothing against Kosminski.

all of the police were vague and did not go into many details on the crimes or suspects when writing their memoirs. It’s not like they were only vague in discussing Kosminski, they were vague when discussing ALL the suspects. We only have a small fraction of the original JtR case file and evidence. So the fact that probably 95% of it is missing and likely lost forever is NOT proof in any way that “they had nothing against Kosminski”. I imagine they had plenty more against him than we will ever know. But not knowing what they did or didn’t have, I can 100% assure you that they didn’t waste their time following him because he masturbated- an act that pretty much every human in existence has done- or because he was unclean, or mentally ill, or whatever. There were solid reasons that he was a prime suspect, and yes they were frustratingly vague. As far as witnesses and who were good witnesses and who weren’t, multiple people saw JtR on the night of the double event and apparently on the night of the MJK murder. Many others DID see him too. Many probably never realized it and perhaps other did realize it later on. But unless we are going to just assume that Swanson/Anderson we’re liars- which I certainly will not- SOMEONE did apparently make som sort of identification of some suspect.

[Pontius2000]

Why would this have happened?

It was more of a response to a comment in the original thread. But the reason it may well could have happened would be if the asylum had sole guardianship over Kosminski (if there was no family involvement), they may not have cooperated for him to go through the id process if they felt it may lead to a criminal prosecution and they felt he was in no way capable of consenting or fit to stand trial.

[Scott Nelson]

It’s also possible that the family had doctors advising them not to cooperate with the police.

Why would this have happened?

[Varqm]

Over and over again the police memoirs keep repeating the evidence against Kosminski was masturbation,attack against sister with a knife,but I don't think it injured her sister gravely if at all,eating from the gutter,wandering at night.It's not really much at all.
Anderson was vague about the witness reaction,was it verbally said that the witness could identify the suspect ,what was said,or was it just his reading of the reaction of the witness.Since he could not write the exact words or close to it used by the witness it must have been only a read.
Also read the inquests,only Cox said she could identify the man again,maybe Liz Long,both woman.So whoever was the witness,a man, was invalid as a witness.
It was not the police competence but they had nothing against Kosminski.

[Pontius2000]

This is a response to the thread “Possibility for the Seaside Home”. I started to just post it there. But that thread is over 3 years old and hasn’t had a response in that long. Plus, it already had 17 pages of posts. So I’m just starting a new topic instead. Mods can do with it what they want.

3+ year old thread, but ima resurrect it here. I’ve read all 17 pages today, so why not? The thread is a lot of speculation (which of course is what all or most JtR discussions are), so I’m gonna do some speculating of my own:

**even though it’s possible that police discovered Kosminski independently, such as through door to door searches, I speculate that the most likely reason he came to their attention was because of a family member. The family member may have come forward because (a) they were afraid for their own safety, or (b) they actually had a conscience and didn’t want to see other people butchered, or (c) they felt he would inevitably be caught and when it happened, it would bring great shame and possibly even violence against their family. Likely, it was (d) a combination of all three options. These things have already been speculated by many others.


**from the information received, and probably more likely from the viciousness of the MJK murder and the outrage and panic it caused, the police had to follow all plausible leads. And one of those plausible leads was Kosminski. And I speculate that the police followed Kosminski for at least a month and a half. I also believe they probably had other tidbits of information and evidence that lead them to Kosminski, but that would be wild speculation. I do speculate though that from what they gathered from following Kosminski, many police officials did agree with the family member that he was a likely suspect. The idea that Kosminski was followed by police has of course been speculated by many many others.


**knowing that he was very likely the killer and very close to being caught, I speculate that the family had Kosminski put in a private asylum, probably somewhere between January and March 1889. There of course is no official record of this, but many such records have been lost. Many people have speculated that Kosminski was placed in private asylums before he ever went to Colney Hatch.


**Now that Kosminski was in an asylum, the police wanted an identification. This isn’t really even speculation…we know the police wanted SOMEBODY identified, and we know that according to the marginalia that this somebody was apparently Kosminski. We just don’t know exactly when and where it occurred.


now, the following points are why I resurrected this thread, because these are the things I HAVEN’T seen speculated:


**Many arrogant modern ripperologists would have us believe that Victorian era police were little more than a bunch bumbling buffoons who wouldn’t know investigating from a hole in the wall. This is something I’ve always found odd since Scotland Yard was considered the greatest police force in the world. But contrary to this arrogant modern interpretation, I think contemporary police of the time knew a thing or three about policing and psychology. I speculate that in light of the details of the murders (particularly, the most recent MJK killing), the police knew full well- without ever having set eyes on JtR- that they were dealing with an insane person who would NEVER be convicted or hanged.


**so knowing beforehand that JtR would never be convicted, why would the police still want to attempt an identification? I speculate that it wasn’t for evidence for court or a conviction, but simply because they wanted to be as sure as they possibly could be that they had their man and that the panic was truly over.


**now they brought him “with difficulty” to be identified at the seaside home (wherever that was). I speculate that the “difficulty” was that the family did not trust the police or did not understand British law regarding culpability. The police surely knew that JtR could not be convicted, but it probably took a lot of convincing for the family to understand that. It’s also possible that the family had doctors advising them not to cooperate with the police. Whatever convincing it took either the family or less likely, the doctors (and probably not Kosminski himself) someone finally agreed, after the “difficulty” to let the identification process go forward.


**the witness, probably Lawende, was brought forward and either verbally or through his actions indicated that Kosminski was the man. I speculate that like the family (or doctors), the witness also had great doubts that his identification would not be used as evidence to execute Kosminski (a fellow Jew). The police could’ve probably twisted the witness’s arm as they had the family’s (or doctors), but what would have been the point? They already fully understood that he could not be convicted, so what did it really matter whether not he was willing to go on official record identifying JtR? After all, I speculate at this point they only wanted to ensure that the panic was over, not to get a conviction.


**others in this thread say there’s too much wrong with this and bring into question that any such identification process even took place because it would’ve been against established protocol and would not have been admissible in court. I say this is total malarkey. The admissibility in court wouldn’t even have mattered because as I’ve already stated, the police were smart enough to understand that JtR was unconvictable. Again, I speculate that they didn’t do the identification process for evidence for court, but rather for peace of mind that the killing was over.


**others in the thread have asked, if this identification process actually happened, then why wasit not more well known or documented? I do speculate that only a small number of important police officials- Anderson and Swanson among them- would’ve known about this. Why? Because as other posters in this thread have pointed out, it was not “by the book” and was against protocol. There’s no point in letting the public or your colleagues know that you’re breaking protocol for something that wouldn’t be allowed in court. And I speculate that they wanted this identification to be as far off the record as possible in case Kosminski had a “miraculous recovery” from his illness and was set back out on the streets again. If and when that happened, rather than having a well documented identification that would’ve been inadmissible, they could’ve started back a more “by the book” investigation on Kosminski and gone about trying to get the witness to make a more “on the record” identification.


**some have speculated that because of the public’s anger at the police not solving the case, there’s no way the police would’ve simply sat on the knowledge that they had solved the crime. I Don’t believe this. As much anger as there was about not catching the killer, I speculate there would have been even MORE ANGER if the public knew that the suspect was caught and sitting in an asylum rather than being punished or even publicly identified. As satisfying as it would’ve been to let the public know that the crimes were solved, I speculate that the police were wise enough to know that airing that would’ve brought scrutiny as to JtRs identity and thus potential trouble for his family and possibly the whole Jewish community.


As for why several police officials thought Kosminski died soon after being put in asylum, we don’t know, but the answer could be quite simple. Upon incarceration, the murderous but seemingly more docile Kosminski who died in 1919 may well have been mistaken for the seemingly more dangerous Cohen who died in 1889. And it could’ve been as simple as:

Constable at Colney Hatch for some random reason in 1890-1891: “say, how’s the crazy Jew that you’re holding for us?”

Colney Hatch worker: “what crazy Jew? Oh, thaat crazy Jew. Yeah, he died last year.”

Constable to Swanson: “hey, they told me that Jack the Ripper died last year.”

Or it simply could’ve been that Swanson thought Kosminski had died when in fact, he had simply been moved to Leavesden.

or, it could’ve been many other reasons. Including bad memory. But I guess that speculation for another thread.