A Case of Misattribution?

[Bridewell]

Gilleman

Hi Curious. I'd like to know more about him as well. Unfortunately, I've forgotten more about Gilleman that I remember, as it's been years since I was really researching Berner Street (though in the months ahead I'll start anew for my chapter on it). Assuming he's not one of the other people (such as Diemshitz), misnamed by the press, then he was a man who was upstairs at the time the body was discovered. He told the press that a man came upstairs and told them a body had been found outside. There's nothing suspicious about him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,
If you'll forgive the intrusion, I think it was Gilleman who came upstairs and did the telling. This is from Eagle's testimony:

"As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language. Afterwards I joined my friend, and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, 'There is a dead woman lying in the yard'."

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

oops

Hello Tom. That's right.

Was it Eagle who practically ran outside?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bride, thanks for that. This is correct. This is what prompted Paul Begg and others to suggest that Gilleman was actually Diemshitz himself.

Lynn, I don't know that he did that. I post too much from memory as it is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Eagle did indeed state that he tumbled "pell mell" down the stairs to see the dead woman, despite the fact that he also said he was squeamish of the sight of blood. Since from the moment he stepped out the side door the blood was evident, makes one wonder if he doth protesteth too much.

Both Eagle and Lave stated that they were at the gates at approximately 12:40, yet neither stated they saw anyone. Hmm. No-one. No-one in front of the gates when Eagle entered the passage, no-one in the yard and he stated that he wasnt sure that the body was not there when he passed the spot, although he did say he stayed to the right side of the passage. No-one in front of the gates must mean that Liz and BSM and Israel slid into their places right after he walked by. Hmm again.

Since at least 3 members and one outside witness stated that night that they were alerted to the body around 12:40, its within the realm of possibility that Eagle found the woman. Though he of course, "wasnt sure" that she was there.

If someone in the area felt that Jews were causing these earlier murders, and he was the type to engage in violence, one might think that someone could have come across Liz Stride, who was working for Jews, outside a Jew club late at night, and to punish her and blame the Jews, he taunts her, she goes to move from him and he grabs her scarf and kills her just inside the gates.

After all, Blame and Jews were words connected to these events. By an apron piece.

Best regards,

Mike

[lynn cates]

suspects

Hello Mike. Then both Eagle and Lave are on your radar screen?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Eagle did indeed state that he tumbled "pell mell" down the stairs to see the dead woman, despite the fact that he also said he was squeamish of the sight of blood. Since from the moment he stepped out the side door the blood was evident, makes one wonder if he doth protesteth too much.

This is pretty much what I was talking about, but it's also why I think Eagle makes a better BS Man the rude guy than he does BS Man the murderer. His explanation of not liking the sight of blood might have been his way of explaining his over-the-top reaction when he recognized the dead woman as the lady he'd rudely handled only 20 minutes prior. Or he could have simply been telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

This is pretty much what I was talking about, but it's also why I think Eagle makes a better BS Man the rude guy than he does BS Man the murderer. His explanation of not liking the sight of blood might have been his way of explaining his over-the-top reaction when he recognized the dead woman as the lady he'd rudely handled only 20 minutes prior. Or he could have simply been telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I personally would rather more exchanges like this Tom,.. but one other factor bugs me about him, and thats that he was not certain the body wasnt there. If he did as he said, and kept to the right, he would have known there was no dead body at 12:40am. He would have had to avoid it. He would have also seen Lave.

Its kind of like Louis saying after seeing the woman dead on the ground he rushed to make sure it wasnt Mrs D. Of course Ive never seen a picture of Mrs D, but I would imagine she looked nothing like the woman lying dead, even if by dress alone.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding Lave, he would already have been inside prior to Eagle's return. Was he the man standing in the street in front of the club speaking with Stride, as witnessed by PC Smtih? No way to know, but it's interesting that Lave did not see this activity, nor did Smith see him. Everybody in Berner Street that night JUST missed everyone else. Where I stand at this point on who killed Stride, in order, is...

1) Jack the Ripper

2) Charles Le Grand, aka Pipeman, because he was violent, didn't like women, and went to great lengths to screw up the Stride investigation. He's the epitome of inserting oneself into an investigation. May or may not be one and the same as #1.

3) A clubman. Incidentally, I published an essay on the Eagle/Lave theory some time back in one of Don Souden's journals.

4) Albert Bachert, for reasons published in my essay 'Bachert in Berner Street', which I believe was published in the first issue of New Independent Review. Very suspicious, but unlikely.

In other words, I'm convinced of no one and nothing, which is really frustrating, because I want to know for sure who killed Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding Lave, he would already have been inside prior to Eagle's return. Was he the man standing in the street in front of the club speaking with Stride, as witnessed by PC Smtih? No way to know, but it's interesting that Lave did not see this activity, nor did Smith see him. Everybody in Berner Street that night JUST missed everyone else. Where I stand at this point on who killed Stride, in order, is...

1) Jack the Ripper

2) Charles Le Grand, aka Pipeman, because he was violent, didn't like women, and went to great lengths to screw up the Stride investigation. He's the epitome of inserting oneself into an investigation. May or may not be one and the same as #1.

3) A clubman. Incidentally, I published an essay on the Eagle/Lave theory some time back in one of Don Souden's journals.

4) Albert Bachert, for reasons published in my essay 'Bachert in Berner Street', which I believe was published in the first issue of New Independent Review. Very suspicious, but unlikely.

In other words, I'm convinced of no one and nothing, which is really frustrating, because I want to know for sure who killed Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

On Lave, he stated he was looking out at the street from the edge of the property at around 12:40, so he was not inside when Eagle says he arrived at the gates.

As to whom killed Stride, I wouldnt want to smear anyones name without absolute proof myself, but I think its abundantly clear that the "Ripper" did not kill like Strides murderer did.

Belief that he was interrupted or sometimes just cut a throat once is all well and good, but unprovable as far as I can see. When something isnt evident, isnt present or isnt done by the killer, Im not open to imagining that just indicates the killer of Polly and Annie just changed his goals or was unable to complete them.

Nothing about Liz Strides demeanor in death suggests further activity with the deceased was intended or interrupted, and there is little possibility in my opinion that the man that killed Polly and Annie sometimes just cuts a throat once too.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

We can rule out No. 1 and the murder-interruptus/unsated lustmord scenario. Just like the Dodo, it doesn't fly and never will.

No. 2 must remain ingenious speculation, although I do doff my cap to you on your Le Grand researches.

No. 3 is perfectly feasible, but I do not understand why a club member would risk attracting the unwanted attentions of the police to the IWEC.

And, as you say yourself, No. 4 is unlikely.

All thoughts of a serial-killing Jack the Ripper aside for one moment, cutting someone's throat and leaving them to bleed to death in a filthy yard does betoken a certain contempt. So was it deeply personal, or was it expedient?

For reasons I cannot yet explain, I suspect expedience.

For me this is borne out by the oh-so convenient arrival of the SJ postcard, in which No. 1 claimed ownership of the murder and at a single stroke ruled out any other possible motive for the death of Elizabeth Stride.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Simon. Serial killer and lust murder are not necessarily mutually exclusive, at least for those of us enlightened to the fact that the 1990's 'SK profiling' fad has been a bust.

As for 'club member', I try not to use the member word, because on any given weekend, the majority of the people at the house would not have been actual members. The socialist/anarchist attracted then, as now, people of all types, including nut cases.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

I shall change that to "club attendee".

Same reasoning applies.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

Sorry, I don't adhere to the possibility of an IWEC member or an IWEC visitor that night having been the "spontaneous“ killer. What are the odds that this event was followed by the Mitre square murder done by someone else? And people connected with the IWEC knew to avoid the police. How many murderers among them were ever arrested POST the double event? Zero.

I also have my problems with Bachert as a suspect, though motive for him would have been pretty obvious.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. A club attendee may also have killed Eddowes. I don't consider this the likeliest theory, but it's viable.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Oh come on Tom, now you're joining Lynn's counter-intelligence theory (about Okhrana's provocatory acts etc.). If I were to consider that theory, I'm rather seeing Le Grand (or even Bachert!) as the culprit, rather than a random “double agent anarchist“.